Friday, February 27, 2009

Where to find facts

I thought i better give some small summary as i was asked if I have facts to substantiate the issues

I will just summarize here so it can be a one look thing

Please note that some posts like : Future ahead are just questions we need to ask and there is no facts needed. Unless i am reporting a factual issue, i think i could not possibly offer facts on my own opinion on the incident. But where facts are involved, i have highlighted it.

Unless i missed out something. Please let me know


1. idolatory issue and teaching on worship idols

Factsheet

- the teaching is shown in the Video post from Foundation i posted up
- Statements were issued previously by North America churches in Hope regarding the issue ( documents with signatures available from post and also in biblediscuss.com)
- There is a video of the full teaching its in thai and big file so cannot put up ( but foundation have put up the relevant portion)
- 18 page statement ( PN have not been able to defend as of now - he has chosen to remain silent )


2. Finance and money used for Dr.J

- 18 page statement ( PN did not deny) this fact
- Elders meeting minutes which spoke about money transfer ( in post ) and in PDF
- Receipt of money transfer from HGI ( shown in video)
- Ps Somptop one of the account holders ( please note account Hope have a number of accounts and the correct procedure was all money to go to foundation and then the money will be disbursed out according) did not deny about the money being used - ( in the Foundation video - show the meeting when they had a members meet and tell session )
- Video shows also a wife of a former secretary " who ran away" because He knew the moeny issue was illegal and wrong. The wife went on the meet and tell and showed the letter her husband wrote and also begged him to come home ( the man ran away )
- Amount owed is still being finalised, but its going to the courts

3. Adultery issue of PN

- This is fact because it is reported by all Pastors from HGI so it cannot be false : my pastor have mentioned and also top leaders have not denied this happened check with your pastor
- Ps PK has issued a first statement about this
- PK has 2 other letters : one to state his intention and the other i heard ( this is have not seen) is to apologise for being too blunt.

4. Dr Dan or Dr J

Separation from wife
- mentioned in PK letter
- Dr.J's closet aide did not deny the issue

Mobilising of member to help in his election and changing their address so they can support kriengsak
- Ask the gound members in Hope Bangkok
- No one deny this fact, the bangkok regions have worked tirelessly during his campign
- This is an open secret
- Foundation I believe have prove ( ask them if you want to )

Denial of being founder of Hope
- My post have evidence of his old letters
- An article by Charisma magazine
- Apostle of Hope by Carolyn Boyd ( i think out of print )
- There is court transcript ( highlighted in my post ) showing he deny knowledge about being Hope founder

5. HGI going independent

- I am sure this fact i dont have to prove, as its already announced by individual churches
- Letter by Ps Simon ( If you want can ask your leader to show you )
- HGI in all i believe have issued 3 letters ( the whole reason well - go to biblediscuss.com)


6. Some thai churches joined Hope

- Yes there is
- Some thai church pastors have announced to their members
- If you want to confirm can ask people in Nexus Bangkok chruch or your leaders to confirm
- There are a number of churches that joined HGI mainly those who had stayed neutral


7. PN splitting the church
- In video
- Also widely known fact : they already have their own website

8. About PN side always asking people to just submit to authority
- You have to understand thai ( discussion between pro and non-pro PN supporters)
- Church members who listen to the sermons on Sunday
- Their key verse is the last post i put up Obey your leaders.



I think thats about it .... for those asking about fact and evidence. I cannot think of other things i mention that need evidence.

I hope this helps.

A good read

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Post Obeying your leaders: A short commentary on Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
~ Hebrews 13:17 (NIV)

Let me start this post by saying that I believe there is such a thing as biblical authority, and that it is healthy for believers to obey their spiritual overseers in the local church. What I want to focus on here is the nature of this obedience.

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary Of Old And New Testament Words, the Greek work translated here as "obey" is peitho. Elsewhere in the Bible, peitho is translated as: to yield, to believe, to be assured, to have confidence in, to trust, and to be persuaded by. The obedience here is the kind that comes from a trusting relationship between human beings.

In contrast, look at the Greek word hupakouo, which is also translated as obey in some parts of the Bible. According to Vine's, hupakouo is used for obedience in the following instances:
(a) to God by everyone and everything in Hebrews 5:9 and 11:8
(b) to Christ by natural elements in Matthew 8:27
(c) to disciples of Christ when they command a mulberry tree to uproot cast itself into the sea in Luke 17:6
(d) to the faith by new believers in Acts 6:7; and to the Gospel in Romans 10:16 and Christian doctrine in Romans 6:17 (as to a form or mold of teaching)
(e) to apostolic injunctions, such as in Philippians 2:12
(f) to Abraham by Sarah, as in 1 Peter 3:6
(g) to parents by children in Ephesians 6:1
(h) to masters by servants in Ephesians 6:5
(i) to sin by ourselves if unaided by God in Romans 6:12
(j) in general as slaves in Romans 6:16

See Vine's online here: http://vines.mike-obrien.net

Hupakouo is not about being persuaded or trusting in someone. No, it is about unquestioning, automatic obedience that comes from domineering authority. It's important to note that nowhere in the list does Vine's apply hupakouo to the obedience that should occur between church members and their spiritual overseers. The vital difference is a trusting relationship that produces a voluntary yielding and submission. Moreover, hupakouo is unquestioning, whereas peitho implies that the person obeying weighs the instruction in his or her mind, then deliberately decides to submit to a fellow human being. (Of course, our relationship with God is also trusting like a sheep with its good shepherd or between close friends, but our obedience occurs because He is our Lord and Master.)

What does this imply for obedience to spiritual overseers in the church? It means that we should consider the results of their faith. Hebrews 13:7 says, "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith." We should know their lives and their conduct. This should produce a natural trust. If you obey your boss at work, it's likely hupakouo (though you're lucky if it's peitho). Or if you get stopped by the police, you're not supposed to care about how the officer manages his or her affairs at home. Peitho is different. We know our leaders and trust them.

Moreover, we consider what they say. Like the Bereans in Acts 17, we look in the Bible to see what they say is true or not. Otherwise, if we are not to consider what they say, how can we "be persuaded by" them as peitho implies?

I'm interested to hear the thoughts of people who have considered this question. What is the nature of obedience in Hebrews 13:17?

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Future ahead

I notice a lot of comments have been added to the blog, which is good because are asking questions. The one major aim of this blog is to give everyone a chance to read what is going on. Alot of the stuff are from the Hope Discussion forum which unfortunately is mostly in thai, the letters, the comments and general things are already available but only from the Thai mother church.

I suppose, one of the biggest reason is I wanted to give people evidence and information, and let people make their own decision. Alot of times things comes out in drips and draps and people often get wrong information along the way because it is just hearsay.

You will hear for example in the place where i am , HGI has choosen to leave Foundation and that PN and Dr.J have been stepped down, but not much details are provided, its always the less you know the better unless of course you are a leader. People only hear the conclusion but they do not know how the conclusion came about, so this what the blog is for.

Actually not many people will know the reason why HGI choose to stay independent and not join either PN nor foundation ?PN of course I understand, as for Foundation side what would be the reason ? the official reason was foundation did not follow standard procedure, but yet on foundation side they said they did. I do not think the leaders in Thailand would have followed foundation if what they did was wrong. Maybe the execution was not ideal but keeping issues of such magnitude would be tantamount to a grave sin. - Remember the catholic church who choose to keep Priest's indiscretion with boys a secret ? In the end the church was made to pay billions of dollars. Financial mismangment, idolatory and adultery were no small issues.

In fact, i know of people in HGI who would have preferred to stay with foundation. Would they actually start another Hope Church under foundation ? I dont know. Because now its a three-way split. PN Church, Foundation and HGI.

There are many other things to also consider for those who initially joined Hope because of the vision. Ok i must be the first to admit, sometimes it does feel weird when you go to Bangkok and you meet friends who used to be in the same Hope family now in different family.

My aim besides providing already available information from Thailand is to give people the information to make sound judgment.

In fact beyond the split there will be alot of tough questions to deal with

Eg. Is the 1 million 2015 still the same ? Will we be using the same V&P and mission statment ?
The name Hope of God is also a registered name so we might have to change name or Logo, we cannot be using the same as PN it will certainly cause confusion. It used to be a Theocracy where Bangkok was the ultimate elders, but without them how will we run ? Is it like Assembly of God style rotational or the same Hope Style ? What about the finance ?

One of the main reason for the split was because previously nobody ask question, if something did not seem right, we will sit down and hope the the problem will go away. This church belongs as much to the leaders as to the members who contribute our time, our effort and also our finances. Maybe that is why so many of us are so passionate and work up over this split. Trust me when you spend all your available time Mon-Sun .. going for shepherding, meeting, CG, outreach and give the best part of your life to build the church. People tend to be more interested to know they have not been led down the wrong path, that we are actually walking the talk, not just empty promises we cannot keep. Of course the opposite would have been true, if Hope is just your typical church where only the lay pastors serve and most members attend church and do nothing of course things might have been different. This blog might not happen at all.

In all whatever path we will all take in the future, I think the key thing is this - Every Church and movment have their own unique flavour, each have a role in overall body of Christ's church. Going independent is like taking the same ingredient of teachings, philosophy and structure but now with the ability to add a new twist along the way, i do believe every member who decide to stay with HGI can contribute in this rebuilding project. Its not easy but it can be done

So i shall leave you with the words of Dr.J - "One man can change the world"


PS - I am still working on the video and should be ready end of this week. The video by foundation is very detailed and covers all the grounds, i otherwise would have find hard to cover.

Sunday, February 22, 2009

HGI Letter ?

Well, I suppose since many people are on the blog, I believe the new statement have been send out by HGI

I am not sure if anyone has the statement in writing though, personally i do think that the statment should be made official and handed to people so that we can for once cut off ties with PN and Dr.J rather than leave doubt about our link

Someone mentioned that HGI will have a website up but I am still waiting.

In summary, the letter is

1. HGI have handed the letter of termination to PN and Dr.J both as president and as advisors
2. We will treat Dr.J as a friend only
3. We will be on our own and not join Foundation
4. we will still keep the friendship but that is about it

I think that is the summary if i am wrong please let me know as i dont have the full letter, its not on Bible discuss website. And the announcements are made by word or mouth though

Personally, i hope as leaders of God's church we will be more accountable and to realise that members are as much to the church as the leaders and we need to make everything as transparent as possible so that issues like these will not happen ever again.

Conclusion

I think the main thing is that leaders should stop treating members like children and make sure that members of the church will always be kept informed, Hope failed in the first case because information was not forthcoming and people failed to query, when something did not seem right, no one dare question Dr.J when he suddenly disappeared.

I hope this lesson will make members understand that we are also accountable to God for what happens in our church. Leaders and members alike must be good steward and ensure that we ask if we are not sure and not just take the " leaders know best answer", because if we strip down to the basic, leaders are still human and they are still like all of us, leaders will make mistakes like all of us, leaders are still prone to emotions like of us.

Remember the story of "Animal Farm" - it all started wih a good idea every animal had one common dream, a common desire. But soon corruptions took hold and the dreams soon shattered

So for us all in HGI now, we must always take the lessons from our past and make it a mistake we will not make again, for if we are to win the world first we need to win again the trust of our people that our leaders are honest, God fearing and people of integrity.

Thursday, February 19, 2009

Post from Bangkok Knight

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Post Ps. Rubina's Actions!!
This was some thoughts that I expressed couple of weeks ago when the problems started in church. Thought I would share to the international group. Hope it's not too late!!

There is something I should point out believing that it's not fair for Ps. Rubina if we make judgements of her actions for sending out the 18 page email which is the truth according to her. WHY?

1. Considering Ps. Rubina's family background, education, maturity and her loyalty and sacrifice to the church I believe she tried to talk and other ways possible (as advised in the Bible) but that did not yield any results so came the email which we think was not appropriate. But how do we know if it's appropriate or not since we are not in her position and the legal responsibilities she has as the President of the Foundation.

2. Without the email this news could have circulated to every level of the church as a rumor and could have been labeled as false and people spreading the rumor could have been labeled as traitors to the church. This would have caused even more damage to the church or the people involved and the truth would not have been known.

3. Ps. Rubina sent the email and she took responsibility for it she did not hide and deny it.

4. If church people are to stumble it's not because of The Email
- in the past one year people have left the church not because of the email

- people have resigned from full time staff not because of the email

- and many more things that happened not because of the email

So why are people putting the blame on the Email??

If it is true before anyone was to support or spend offering money for sensitive issues they should have know that their actions will cause people to stumble if done in an inappropriate way. That email is the result of that action/decision. By the way so far I have not heard anyone leaving the church or forsaking God because of the email. But instead it has created awareness and concern for the church of God. What I see is people coming out to protect His church.

5. Lets not loose or shift focus. All this happened not because of the email but because people like you and me feel something is not right here and we need someone in authority to please come out and clarify so that people don't STUMBLE and the church can move in the same direction again. No one hates or wants to destroy anyone all that needs to be done is someone has to take responsibility and clarify things.

6. God has His ways to do things if He wants He can use (humans, emails, nature etc etc....) to make things known and right. So lets not limit Him and have an open heart as to the WAYS AND WHAT He uses in this case.

7. Even if outsiders attack us on this everything that will happen will happen only if God allows. Christians were persecuted and killed during the Romans but it helped to spread Christianity. So lets not panic or speculate about what the email will do to our image and let God be God.

8. If (I’m not saying it is) the email is true what we should be focusing on is how are we going to balance the accounts because end year is approaching and this is clear black and white when it comes to the law of the country. When outsiders look at us they don’t care who has spiritual authority or not all they care is how they can find fault in our system and create problems. So lets not point fingers and use the Bible for the sake of argument because the Bible is a double-edge sword and both sides can use it to support their cause.

If (I’m not saying it is) money is really missing then something must be done SOON if we as members have to help offer back to balance the books "so be it" I am happy with that and I believe everyone would be too because we want to protect the church and the name of God which should be our No. 1 priority. But at the end of the day someone still has to take responsibility and clarify things.

I hope I'm not being biased here and I have not mentioned any names except for Ps. Rubina because I don't think it right to blame her for doing the right thing even though in many people eyes her method was inappropriate or she did not have the authority but we don't know that until we see how God will move in this situation. We all love our church, pastors and everyone that we call brothers and sisters and we all sincerely believe that no one in Hope has any ill intentions towards the church.

No matter what the end result of this situation is weather it was a misunderstanding or the truth or what ever might happen we should look at this as a lesson for us to prepare for the end times coz that’s when it gets worst spiritually, mentally and physically so lets sit tight and pray and wait and see how God moves in this situation.

Recent news

From a post from riveroflife - it does seem that some Thailand Hope Churches have joined HGI movement rather than join PN or Rubina.

I am still not sure how many joined HGI though. But my friends in Thailand did confirm that there are Hope Churches in Thailand that joined HGI.

Wednesday, February 18, 2009

Being Godly Followers

Below is an article from a brother Andrew. I am sure who wouldn't mind me posting his article. Good read.

Thanks for the link.

Being Godly Followers

Generally speaking, we people are more natural followers than leaders.

From the beginning when we enter into this world, we learn to follow our parents. Gradually as we grow up, we enter into school where we learn to follow.

For the men in Singapore, we enter into national service where we are trained to follow. Eventually, we enter into the workforce and again we follow our bosses.

Taking it further, we are consciously or unconsciously subjected to the dictatorship of our government. And you guess it right… We follow again.

Why be a follower

Being a follower is not necessary a bad thing. In fact, being a good follower is important for any system or organisation to function and progress.

In the Bible, scriptures teach us to submit to authorities placed above us as purposed by God. And in the Body of Christ, we are encouraged to obey our leaders and submit to their authority so that their work would be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage for us (c.f. Hebrews 13:17).

Hence, we can conclude that to submit and to follow is not just about loving and respecting your “neighbour”, but it also concerns the advancement of God’s work and purpose through the Body or any system and organisation.

Biblically, unity and cohesiveness leads to godly and optimised performance- His results.

Therefore, understanding and embracing our respective roles and purpose will help us to follow and contribute to the common vision or goal of the Body.

Don’t be a blind follower

Paradoxically, we as Christians are called and destined to be leaders. As we follow God and His word, leadership becomes a responsibility to undertake as we grow in our service to God and people.

But as followers of Christ, we lead by example with a Christ-like life and setting the standard for morality, character, attitude, competence in our field of work and excellence in how we live out God’s will.

However, knowingly or unknowingly, we have become natural “followers” with our “herd” mentality shaped by our environment and not the word of God. This is the go-with-the flow mindset or the go-with-the-majority approach.

Below are some of the wrong reasons of following:

  1. To gain acceptance by fitting in and by not being seen as out of place or deem different
  2. To feel secure with the sense of belonging developed by “going with the flow” or maintaining the status quo
  3. To win love by pursuing the approval and meeting expectations of others
  4. Just plain laziness, ignorance or out of fear in order to avoid hassle, trouble or conflict

Following God first

Personally, following for the wrong reasons is not only unhealthy, but unbiblical. God commands us to love Him with all our hearts, our soul and our MINDS- to know why we do what we do. It may seem safe or the easy-way-out by just following, but eventually it will lead to disastrous consequences.

For certain, this will not produce true leaders in the Kingdom of God. And we can also observe this problem in the corporate world with our government encouraging entrepenuership among Singaporeans.

Therefore, if not careful, we may find ourselves following for all the wrong reasons with God not even in the picture in our obedience. And this is what we usually term as “blind obedience”.

Ultimately, you and I need to know and to be fully aware that we need to follow God first. And that is by obeying His word and walking in His ways first before anything or anyone else.

“We love because he first loved us” ~ 1 John 4:19

Our obedience has to spring from our love-relationship we share with God. And of cos, our following plans and actions has to be undergirded with His love.

Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Answer to query

I thought i should give some answer to a number of query

Purpose of the blog

- This blog sole entire purpose is to provide evidence which is already available in thai websites but are not easily understood by general masses. This post is in english to help the english speaking community who wants to know the happening in Hope Bangkok

How long will this blog last ?

- I have thought about this, this is not entirely a blog about the past, but also about the future. As long as we know the facts and the information have been provided and a decision have been made. I am sure many of us will move on, including myself
- I believe HGI will do a good job
- Of course i would love to in future post more great news from HGI and put up great articles by people
- As long as the initial aim of the blog is achieved,i am happy.

Why this was done

- Having been in hope almost 20 years, i have seen and heard all the reasons and principles. But what i find hardest to swallow is so many times we become so diplomatic to sin. I know no one is perfect, but a " a rose by any other name is still a rose". I rather we shoot from the hip, be honest, if i am wrong, then i am wrong.
- I don't like sitting on the fence, have been doing that for too long and in the end you are none the wiser.
- I rather say what i want to say now then clam it all up and keep it locked up, whats the point.

Monday, February 16, 2009

A website dedicated to PN

Here is a site dedicated to PN by his supporters :

http://www.welovepn.net

Anyway, just to provide some feedback on some reasons why people choose to follow PN.

I have spoken with a number of thai people who decide to join PN, and here are the main reasons that is often mentioned

1. We need to submit to authority and obey the leaders, they know what they are doing

2. Dr.J is doing God's work and we should support him

3. RB and the rest are rebellious and what they did is not right.


Its really sad that many of the people who choose to follow PN do not realise what they are doing. I remember Dr.J used to say sometimes people can be sincere but sincerely wrong, and in this case, i think this phase really sums it all up.

Its of course good to see such undying loyalty to the founder and the leaders but at what cost? If you were to ask the people who support PN about

1. The money ? Was it no.1 legal to do what they did ? Did they know giving money to Dr.J for election is illegal and doing illegal things even if in the name of God is still wrong.

2. What about the leaders life ? How could they preach immediately without restoration after what happen?

3. There was a teaching about idolatory. The example used was i am sure not coincidental, i think an intelligent person can put 2 and 2 together and figure out why this was taught during election period and particularly on this example. I think people are not foolish enough to accept an explanation that its only an example.

I am really very curious as to why people would still support PN and i hope some thai bro or sis could give their reasons. Why would they say RB and the rest are rebels ? When all they did was to bring the truth. Hopefully "riveroflife" can provide some insight.

The bible say if you did nothing wrong. No one can accuse you, for they will heap coals of fire on their own forehead. So if PN leave does it mean he isn't able to answer the questions ?

Following leaders blindly and without questioning their actions is very dangerous. There is always a chance what started out as a wonderful movement could turn into a cult or one where the leader is the pope and can seemly do no wrong.

Maybe all the people missed out something but hopefully we can get some comments from them. Then maybe we will know why they choose this decision

Sunday, February 15, 2009

Five Warning Signs of an Unhealthy Church

Somone posted this link on a post, so i shall put this up :
http://www.cyberscripture.com/warning.htm . Makes for an Interesting read

Five Warning Signs of an Unhealthy Church

By Mike Fehlauer


A familiar voice was on the other end of the line when Mark answered the phone late one evening. "Mark, can we talk? I'm really concerned that our church is becoming...well, it's almost...a cult."

Mark hadn't heard from his friend, Steve, in three years. They both had attended the same charismatic church until Mark's career required him to relocate to another state. Consequently they had lost touch with each other. Now, in desperation, Steve was reaching out to someone outside his closely knit world.

It was clear that Steve's apprehension was the result of personal observations and not just based on church gossip. Up to this point Steve had been careful not to discuss his thoughts with anyone. He was actually afraid to talk about the subject.

Steve was particularly bothered by an attitude of secrecy concerning the church's finances.

"If anyone dares to ask a question about how the money is used, the pastor accuses him of being 'distrustful' or 'disobedient,'" Steve explained. And for the last three years, he added, the pastor's sermons almost always focused on the topic of submission to spiritual authority.

"If anyone leaves the church," Steve told Mark, "the pastors label him 'rebellious,' or they tell us he was offended."

Mark grew more concerned as Steve nervously shared more details. "The pastor also told us that since God brought us to the church, he is our spiritual father, and we should never leave unless God tells him first," Steve said. "He even told us that if we ever left without pastoral permission, we would be vulnerable to Satan's destruction."

When their conversation ended, Mark realized that his friend was trapped in an extremely unhealthy spiritual situation. He urged his friend to set up an appointment with the pastor in order to confront him about his concerns. "You can't subject yourself or your family to that kind of control, Steve," Mark advised.

A week later, Mark talked with Steve again and discovered just how strong the pastor's influence was over this congregation. Steve had apologized to the pastor for talking with an outsider about his problems with the church, and he pledged that he would never talk with Mark again.

Mark has not heard from Steve since.


Deadly Traits of a Controlling Spirit


The scenario I just described is a true story--and it is much more typical than any of us would like to admit. The sad truth is that many churches today struggle with varying degrees of unhealthy control--which can lead to devastating spiritual abuse if not corrected. That abuse has resulted in untold thousands of wounded and disillusioned Christians who believe they've been burned by the one institution in the world that was supposed to help them.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in the local church. The local congregation is sacred, and it is God's idea. All believers should be in fellowship with a local church according to Hebrews 10:24-25. There is a dynamic of God's grace that is only found in a consistent relationship with a healthy local body.

God's intention all along has been for the local church to be healthy, life-giving and Christ-centered. But because He has chosen to use frail, sin-prone individuals to lead His church, there is always the possibility that a local congregation can fall into deception or unhealthy spiritual patterns.

So how do you know whether a church has come under the influence of a controlling spirit? Here are five clear warning signs:

1. Power positioning. There is certainly a place for biblical teaching on spiritual authority. But if a pastor preaches on this subject every Sunday, constantly reminding everyone that he is in charge, you can be sure that trouble is around the corner.

In an unhealthy church, the pastor actually begins to take the place of Jesus in our lives. In Steve's case, he was told that he couldn't leave his church with God's blessing unless the pastor approved the decision. The implication was that unless he received pastoral permission, God would not bless him. Controlling spiritual leaders use this kind of reasoning to manipulate people.

We must understand the process a church goes through to reach this point of deception. Because pastors have no way to measure their success except through church attendance, they may become disappointed if people leave their church. If they are insecure, they may actually develop a doctrine in order to stop people from leaving. They may preach sermons about unconditional loyalty, using the biblical stories of David and Jonathan, or Elisha and Elijah.

By using examples like this, the leader can actually gain "biblical" grounds to control even the personal areas of his parishioners. A controlling leader may also attempt to instill a sense of obligation by reminding his congregation of everything he has done for them.

This kind of preaching causes church members to seek a position of favor with the pastor rather than a proper desire to "please God and not man" (see Acts 5:29). Jesus also condemned such man-pleasing when he told the Pharisees: "'I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me...How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?'" (John 5:43-44, NKJV).

When we pursue the honor of men, we do so at the expense of our relationship with Him. Gradually men will take the place of God in our lives. An unhealthy soul tie is created, and our sense of confidence is determined by our standing with those in leadership. This kind of control will destroy people spiritually!

A healthy church will not allow genuine pastoral concern to cross the line into manipulation or control. A true shepherd will use his influence to draw church members into a closer relationship with Jesus, who is the only "head of the church" (Eph. 5:23). A true shepherd realizes that the people in his congregation don't belong to him--they are God's flock.

2. An atmosphere of secrecy. When a church member surrenders to a system of control, the leader gives limited information to each individual, carefully monitoring each relationship. As a result, each member is only able to relate to other members based on the information he receives from the leader.

This way, if the pastor or church staff determines that one of the members has become a "threat," they have a strategy in place to maintain the control they believe is required. Consequently the church can sever relationships when necessary and keep this process cloaked behind a veil of secrecy.

This is not limited to members of the congregation. I know a pastor who did this with his staff. In casual conversations he would make a comment that would result in one staff member becoming suspicious of another. Or he would say something to cause one staff member to feel superior.

This atmosphere fueled selfish ambition and competition among the staff. Yet it became the pastor's way of maintaining control and ensuring that his staff could never challenge his authority. In time, the assistant pastors discovered what was happening, and they all eventually left.

In an unhealthy congregation, secrecy also may cloak the area of finances. Pastors may make brazen appeals for money, yet they offer no assurance that the finances of the church are handled with accountability and integrity.

I have actually heard pastors tell their congregations that they don't make the financial decisions of the church a public matter because "the congregation doesn't have the spiritual insight or maturity to understand the dynamics of church finances." Have you heard this line of reasoning before?

Some pastors actually preach: "It doesn't matter what we do with your money. Your responsibility is simply to give." However, the Bible commands us to be good stewards--and part of good stewardship is making sure that proper systems of accountability are established to handle tithes and offerings.

When we become aware of financial mismanagement, then as stewards we are responsible for where we sow our financial seed. I can't imagine anyone who continues to give after becoming aware of the misuse of funds. Yet they might still feel compelled to give if their desire for the approval of those in leadership is more important than financial integrity.

3. An elitist attitude. This deadly trait produces an "us and them" mentality. This is the church that believes no one is really preaching the gospel but them. Or at least, no one is preaching it as effectively as they are!

An elitist spirit discourages church members from visiting other churches or receiving counsel from anyone who doesn't attend their church. If anyone visits another church, he is viewed as a dissident.

"Everything you need can be found within the framework of our group," this spirit says, adding, "Everything you need to know, you will receive from the pastor and his teachings." Consequently there is little respect, if any, for other denominations.

A healthy church respects and celebrates the other expressions of Christ's many-membered body. A Jesus-centered church realizes that no one denomination or local church can win a city, regardless of how large it is. Christ-centered leaders, who are clothed with humility, recognize that the small church is as significant as the large church, the Baptists are as vital as the charismatics and every racial group has a place at the Lord's table.

A healthy church will promote other churches in the city, rather than simply promote its own events and agendas all the time. A healthy church will promote spiritual renewal in all churches rather than further the idea that it has some kind of doctrinal superiority. A healthy church will exude the attitude described in Philippians 2:3-4: "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also the interest of others."

4. Performance emphasis. Opportunities to minister are abundant in most churches. Yet in a controlling church, these areas of ministry are no longer opportunities to serve. They become necessary in order to prove one's commitment to the organization. Whether it's faithful attendance to worship services or working in some department, loyalty becomes the key.

Obviously church attendance is vital to our spiritual growth. But if we find ourselves attending church so we can win favor with the pastor or to earn his trust, then we have missed the point.

Galatians 2:16 tells us that "a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ." We cannot earn heaven or God's love. The message of God's grace doesn't cancel the need to serve, it just exposes the "why" of our service.

Even though we are instructed to engage in certain disciplines in the Christian life, these disciplines are not a means of gaining God's acceptance. They are meant to be a celebration of His unconditional love and mercy.

5. Fear motivation. When a pastor tells his congregation that those who leave his church or disobey his authority are in danger of God's wrath, you can be sure this man is operating in a spirit of control. He is attempting to use fear as a carnal means of keeping people in his church. The line usually goes like this: "If you leave our church, the blessing of God will be lifted from your life, and you will miss God's will." Another version says, "If you leave our church, you will be in rebellion, and Satan will be free to bring havoc into your life."

Fear is the motivation here--not love. You can be sure that this type of reasoning is not from God. Jesus never motivated men out of fear. In a controlling church, fear is a form of manipulation. What wasn't accomplished through love and servanthood, a controlling church tries to accomplish through manipulation. This is a direct contradiction to 1 John 4:18, which says, "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear."

How should you respond if your church displays one or more of these unhealthy traits? Here's some advice:

· Talk with your pastor about your concerns, keeping in mind that if he is truly motivated by a spirit of control you may encounter some manipulation during the conversation. Stay in a humble attitude rather than getting angry or defensive.

· A controlling church leader will discourage you from speaking with anyone else about your concerns. However the Bible says that "in the multitude of counselors there is safety" (Prov. 11:14). Seek counsel from a mature, objective leader in another church or another mature Christian. It is possible that what you have perceived as a controlling attitude may be genuine concern--so pray for discernment.

· If after receiving counsel you are convinced that your church is in the grip of a controlling spirit, then you are free to leave. You are not responsible for anyone else who is still loyal to the church, so don't try to rescue them. Pray for those people to discern the situation.

· At first you may feel like you can't trust another pastor again, but resist those thoughts and find a healthy church where the life of God is flowing, where the Bible is preached without compromise and where love is evident.


God has a healthy church for you. The Good Shepherd is fully able to lead you into a green pasture (Psalm 23:2) where you can grow in your relationship with Him. As you allow Him to lead you, He will also anoint your head with oil (vs. 5)--healing any wounds you encountered in an abusive environment. *


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Fehlauer has written a book on this important subject available from Charisma Press at the following internet address: http://cbw.strang.com/c.cgi?ProdID=7689&Source=INTNET

Saturday, February 14, 2009

18 Page evidence

Of course this only also works if you got thai friend, who can translate, but this is a video presentation during the Meet the members week where Rubina had to explain her actions and present the video evidence to allow PN to respond.





video



In essence, Rubina is providing video evidence both of the idolatory teaching, the teacher of the teaching for those in the know is the translator for DrJ when he used to teach in IPC.

The video basically shows the evidence not just in words but all allegations presented in a systematic manner.

I thought i should upload this in case i might loss the video.

PN's 18 page reply

This is in thai but yes there was previously a youtube video by PN on the 18page statement. Unless you can speak thai or someone who can. I shall not comment on his reasons as its too long. To explain in english, unless of course people want to translate.



















Friday, February 13, 2009

Address to HGI query

Below is a post and comment i thought i could help clarifyAnonymous
HGI - Was actually an arm under the Hope movement, i think one of my earlier post have mentioned by Rubina that HGI aim was to spearhead the international churches to reach the 2015 goal. From my understanding PN was the President and DrJ was an advisor, but since then both have been stood down.

The previous address of HGI was in Thailand Bangkok before the split, we have an office in Hope Place. But i understand before the split there was plan to move HGI to the USA. That was one of the reasons we focused alot on the America region. As we wanted a more global flavour to the movement.

As for the website - its an E-club organisation. For those in the know, its spearheaded by Brisbane. Mainly an Evangelism club. The blog is quite well-known in Oceania.

Hope this helps abit


Anonymous said...

Who or what is HGI? To those in Hope, it is assumed to be a legitimate leadership of the entire organization. In time you will realize it is a phantom organization. They make the decisions, you pay the money. You don't know who they are or what they do with the money. Ask yourself: where is the HGI headquarters? What is the address? Phone number? website? the leaders? minutes from meetings? Have you EVER seen an HGI letter head?

What kind of legitimate organization would behave like this?

Another ex-member in Asia.

February 13, 2009 7:17 AM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's certain truth in the above post...

I only know that there's this website: http://advancehgi.blogspot.com/search/label/cover

In fact, not many members know abt this website too...

Nexus Christian Church

Another neutral group, has decided to start a new Church called the Nexus Christian Christian Church, Bangkok.

Nexus ขยับไปอีกก้าวแล้ว
วันนี้ เองครับ มีการประชุมผู้นำระดับหน่วยขึ้นไปของ Nexus หรือ รถไฟ สรุปร่วมกันว่า Nexus จะขยับไปข้างหน้าอีกก้าวหนึ่ง โดยประกาศเป็น คริสตจักร อย่างเต็มรูปแบบครับ

ใช้ชื่อภาษาอังกฤษว่า Nexus Christian Church, Bangkok

ชื่อไทยยังไม่รู้ รอวงในมาประกาศต่อครับ

This is still Hope camp but this year there will be 2 one conducted by foundation and another by PN.

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Dr.J's political Allies

This information might have been lost somewhere in all the information from biblediscuss. But as i was reading the papers yesterday and there was a news about Mr Mugabe. I remember about the post from Channi....

It seems that Dr.J is a Mugabe representative in Thailand and in fact one of his aide in his party was being blacklisted by the USA ( read one of the post ).

I don't know much about Dr.J's political party make-up and what is his political ambition but, if he were to be prime minister, i am sure Zimbabwe will be his closest ally.

If anyone knows some other details and what his party stands for maybe can you comment

Thanks

Post and Comments

Its interesting that Ps PN often tell us not to split church but he himself did otherwise, I am not too sure if he will try to convince other HGI churches to join him, but i do know they are trying their best to get people around bangkok and thailand to join them, especially those churches who stayed neutral.

Apparently though from a friend he send people to the neutral churches to convince them to join him and also get people to talk to people in foundation to get them to switch over.

I do think HGI churches will stand with the leadership in HGI and not switch camp. From what i read from the biblediscuss, which unfortunately is mostly in Thai, we will follow Ps Simon.


Comments from previous post.... :

That is exactly what happened in Seattle... isolate you and try to convice others to abandon you... better to be united regardless of the situation. God blesses unity...

If anyone is reading this, also be aware that if the Hope leaders can't convince you to follow them, they will go through your spouse and try to get them on their side.

Thank God that these things are now finally being revealed.

Ex-Member in Seattle.



Anonymous said...

I forgot to mention.

Washington DC
Dallas Texas
Tokyo
Los Angeles, California
Vancouver, Canada
Portland, Oregon

These are all churches that were under the leadership in Seattle. PN and Somtop came to Seattle during a big meeting and convinced the others to stay with Hope.

The Pastors in Washington DC moved back to Seattle and remain here till this day. As far as I can tell, DC evaporated as well as Portland, Oregon.

Later, Arizona joined with Seattle and remains with us today.

Monday, February 9, 2009

Quick Note

To help clarify, there was a big change around 1997-2002. These was around the time that Dr.J officially stepped out from HGI. IPC was still in operation and Dr.J was still teaching around until 1997, the last i saw DrJ was in Contemporary Church and he taught a couple more times before he left the Church scene. Not all the pastors took the churches with them, i can only confirm - Seattle, KL and Melbourne, so in the end we had to set up another Hope church again in that city. 2 have website which is from previous post

There were changes in leadership in many Hope Churches in HGI during the same time Dr.J stepped down around the late 90s

1. Seattle
2. Melbourne
3. Singapore
4. Perth
5. KL Malaysia
6. Canberra
7. Hong Kong

These were the more established churches, there were some which had change of leadership but were only less than 30 people. Most were pionnering churches. But to clarify there were no split of churches due to this current crisis. I do believe most HGI churches are united in their decision to split from Hope Movement.

Past Hope Church

Some links to Churches that used to be from Hope Movement,

New Hope International - http://www.newhopeinternationalchurch.org/

Reach Community - http://reachcc.org/

Sunday, February 8, 2009

New change New Vision ?

From the current grapevines, it does seem that we will be going independent and not be joining PN. HGI will be a whole new movement.

I am wondering if we will have a new logo, vision statement or goal ? Who will be the new elders and how we will make sure something like this would not happen again. The thing is we could not possibly have the same vision or logo with Hope Bangkok and foundation.

So i suppose as well its no more 1 million churches by 2015. Sad that we will never got to 2015 in one piece. Well, hopefully there will be better days ahead. At least, I do feel cleansing is done.


One pastor not from Hope shared something which i think would be good to implement. He mentioned that because leaders are still human and can make mistake therefore its important that no matter how high are you up in the leadership echelon, we need to make our lives accountable to someone - a mentor or a group of leaders. This will provide a check and balance so that we will not be swayed when we are faced with temptations.

Friday, February 6, 2009

HGI moving on ?

As i patiently wait for more development, I think many international people especially the ancient ones at Hope - "those who have gone past the 7 year itch and still in Hope Church" are all waiting for the full official statement, there was one by Ps Simon but i think was restricted to only leaders in most churches.

As of now, I know we are staying Neutral and will not join PN nor foundation. Apparently someone from the grapevine have mentioned we might join the 3rd neutral party in Thailand who have not joined PN or foundation side.

I think in most churches the leaders know of the split but news have been in drips and draps going down to the members.

Though it might not be a nice thing to announce, but i do think it would be good that an official announcement available to the members be provided so there will be no more guessing. If we are going to join back with foundation or PN.

I know even in international, the people are still split, some support PN and would like us to join them again, some neutral, while some of course will not.

Anyway, if anyone got more info please feel free to comment on this post so we know what is latest development in the international scene.

Thanks

History of Hope International

Having been in Hope for almost 2 decades, i can truly say i have seen it all and heard it all. I thought i should also blog down a little bit of the Hope International History. No opinions but just facts so here goes.

As you know Dr.J or Dr Dan as he is called, studied in Monash University and that is where he met his wife and also received the Lord Jesus. He attended a church in Melbourne and well his history in on my other post.

In melbourne, he started a bible study class which included some core people, where he gave them intensive bible study classes. I believe Ps Simon was one of the beneficiary of the initial years. Story was told DrJ finished the bible 8 times in that 1 year.

When he went back to thailand, he returned to Melbourne to preach in a seminar organised by the Overseas Christian Fellowshop, i believe back then Melbourn already had a Hope Church. In this meeting, was the birth of the International churches.

At that time DrJ's teaching was revolutionary, I was not there but i have watched the video a number of times. I believe its called One man One world and One man Can change the world.

It inspired alot of people to actually join Hope, well if i am not wrong and dont quote me on it, but you might be surpirse to find that some of the Hope Pastor's used to be OCF leaders. The leaders included, Ps Chew Bong, Ps Peter Ting, Ps Andrew, Ps Simon, Ps Gordan, Ps Victor Soo, etc. Alot of the initial bunch of people that studied with Dr.J joined him in Hope Movement. And alot more during this conference. You could say HGI was birth out of the one meeting.


Hope Melbourne was the 1st International daughter church, followed by Seattle, then Singapore... a number of others started appearing around the world. But from my understanding, the key night was the night DrJ was invited to preach at the OCF seminar, the sudden exodus from leaders to Hope back then caused alot of friction with OCF. I think if my memory serves me right they have a constitution which states that no OCF leaders or members can be a Hope member, whatever it has toned down... that i am not too sure. Most new OCFs wont know, only the older seniors, that was way back in the early 1990s.

But something happened in 1996-1999, I to say the least was stunned when one after another, many of the 1st group of pastors started leaving Hope for one reason or another, lets just say that if you have been in Hope long enough, you will know who are those pastors, and if you are not then it won't affect you either,so i wont go repeating their stories. But at the time i did not understand why these initial leaders left because in truth these were good leaders and now i now better. Lets put it this way, if 1 or 2 leaders left, i would think its normal but more than 10 pastors left, well Now we now better.

The really funny thing though, when some pastor left Hope they also brought their members with them like in Seattle, KL and Melbourne. PN used to tell us, NEVER NEVER NEVER SPLIT THE CHURCH. Lets keep unity and if you want to go, go so by yourself , protect unity at all cost. You can ask PN if you don't believe.

Anyway, all these happen when Dr.J started entered politics and left the church to PN. He only preached in IPC ( International Pastor's conference) though. I had felt something was really wrong but couldn't understand why. I attributed it to the spiritual covering and now when all these happen, i finally realise.

As Dr.J's heart left God and pursued politics, the spiritual covering that was suppose to be there, started to crack. As he continued to lie in court about his knowledge of us, so did the blessing that was suppose to cover our pastor.

When PN and DrJ talk about spiritual covering, the person providing the covering must first live a life that is worthy of such annointing. If blessings are suppose to flow from Top Down, but the top are not living a life worthy of men of God. Then how are we the ones in the middle and the bottom suppose to receive the annointing of the Hope Umbrella ?

There was alot of theory in my mind back then, i could not place my finger on it. But, something was not right, we had all the right principles, understanding, the blueprint and yet most of our Hope Churches stuggle to hit 1000 with the exception of Hope Singapore of course. Singapore is a very blessed country, almost every church there is a mega church.

Initially i blamed the pastors for leaving us, but now i understand, if almost 90% of the initially 1st flock left in about the same time, it could not have been their fault. Now the secret is out, all alog when the real man behind Hope ( DrJ) was disowning us apparently for our sake. How could God give us the covering.

We have to remember, even though PN was the official Head of Hope, Dr.J was still the leader of the movement and the one directing the vision and direction of the church. PN is his brother-in-law.

Now if you ask me, maybe it has been the best decision so far for HGI to leave the covering of PN and Dr.Dan. I would hate to see more pastors leaving Hope and getting burned out. I know HGI would be better off this way.

There are alot of good leaders in HGI and i think HGI will go far under a different covering from PN and Dr.Dan.

Cindy's Prophesy on PN

A post in the biblediscuss.com discussed about the prophesy given to Hope Church by Cindy Jacob way back in I believe in 2006, in it she prophesy over PN and Rubina.

God promised many things to him and that God will prosper him.. but at the end of the prophesy Cindy gave 2 impt precursor or warning that because

1) " you were willing to unite the people "
2) "you were willing to humble yourself".

I have always learn that often prophesy of great blessings comes with conditions attached. If we are to claim the blessings we need to makes sure we also abide by the conditions set by God.

The funny things was in 2008, unity and humility was the 2 things God tested him. I believe this prophesy was sort of a pre-warning that great things could have come from the United Hope but before God could hand down his blessings he have to make sure that the people are ready to receive

What might have happen - If PN would have decided to step down, Hope will be still united and people will be encouraged to see a humble leader willing not only to admit his misdeeds but also to bear the consequence. I believe PN would have received more support and people would have respected him more. Who knows, by stepping down God could have opened also the door to a new Bank and move him into the business realm. By being full-time pastor it would have been impossible to start a bank and also pioneer the church movement. Our hope movement's workload is too demanding, i am sure most will agree.

I was actually pondering over Cindy Jacob's prophesy because I initially could not see how PN could have start a Bank. Now i see the full picture, God would have known in his forknowedge that PN would commit the things he did and no doubt, God was already preparing him for the inevitable.

Truely, if he had choosen the later path, Hope will not be where we are together, split into different camps. Well, next time when we receive God's prophesy we need to pay very close attention to it, and make sure when we are face with difficult choices, we do not the wrong one.

Below is the video of the prophesy.. oh by the way Rubina's prophesy was next after PN and his wife. Listen to what Cindy mention about Rubina as an esther, a voice for the children - it could also mean "spiritual" children.

Below is the youtube video i uploaded took me awhile to put it up ...anyway i suppose we can speculate the meaning of Cindy's prophesy. It was a topic raised in biblediscuss..

Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Letter from PN

Reply from Ps PN regarding the split of HGI from Ps PN. I do understand a statement from HGI have been released, but all i can say is hopefully we will make the right choice and not join the leadership of PN. There are just too many unanswered questions and though Hope church teach us to obey and submit. We only do so when it concerns issues of Administrative in nature, but not in issues that are of spiritual and legal in nature.

I still personally do no undestand the term disagreement ? There is nothing to disagree. In regards to the finance allegations it was illegal in nature and a matter that could land people in jail. The idolatory teaching is a spiritual matter, while their family issue regarding was a matter of leadership nature and also preached in 1 Tim and a matter of the 10 Commandments.

I do not understand why it would be just a simple disagreement, but i am not them so... maybe as leaders we are allowed double standards. I wonder if someone else other then them committed such allegations would their judgment be still the same and allow the alleged leaders to continue in their ministry, its just a thought but an interesting one.



Re: เอกสารจาก อ.ปากกา ถึง Elder
จากการอ่านคิดว่า ก็ไม่น่าจะมีอะไรเสียหาย
ขอ 1 อย่างนะครับ วิเคราะห์ได้แต่อย่าเหน็บแนม

Date: Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 7:42 PM

Dear Simon and RMCs,
I am writing on behalf of the leadership of Hope of God Churches in Thailand. We have received a copy of your letter sent to DJ concerning the decision you have made to part ways with DJ already. Thus, I would like to communicate the position of the leadership team of Hope Churches in Thailand and how HGI and Hope of God Churches in Thailand should work together in the future.

First of all, I would like to confirm that the leadership of Hope of God Churches in Thailand, which includes Hope of Bangkok Church and Hope Churches in over 60 provinces of Thailand still pledge to be under the covering of DJ as the apostle of Hope Movement. Despite the fact that DJ has no official title relating to Hope Churches in Thailand and has expressed his intention to withhold the assertion of his authority and leadership over us, we still welcome his insights at any time and on any issue.

Secondly, we would like to see Hope international churches and Hope churches in Thailand serve the Lord together in unity because we believe that unity is very essential to receive the Lord’s blessings and is a solid foundation which was laid in Hope for the purpose of the effective advancement of the Kingdom of God. We hope that as you and Hope of God churches in Thailand still do not agree on a number of issues, the leadership of both sides should find time in the near future to discuss our disagreements until we can come to some agreeable conclusion for the best purposes of the Kingdom of God. Despite disagreements, I and leaders of Hope of God churches in Thailand still uphold our covenant and the unity we share among Hope churches. We believe that as both sides have pledged to learn more of God’s Way and to abide by it, the Holy Spirit is able to lead us to truly understand His Way. We would like to extend an open invitation for you to fellowship and discuss unresolved matters with us at any time in the future.

Thirdly, I would like you to warn the leaders of international churches whenever they use an unbiblical approach toward leaders. Matthew 18 should be strictly practiced. Otherwise leaders will be misled to think that such practices are appropriate, and will thus undermine biblical practices that should be upheld.

Fourthly, I would like you to be mindful of the difficult situation that has occurred among Hope churches in Thailand and thus cooperate with us in resolving them. As I have learned of the intention of some ex Hope of God churches or groups of members in Thailand to seek covering from RMCs of international churches (due to their misled belief that they share the same position as you), so I would like you to abstain from taking any of these groups to be under your covering because from our point of view, it is not so that you share the same position as they hold. Issues relating to these ex Hope churches or groups of ex Hope members in Thailand are somewhat complicated and their procedures in resolving disagreements are not biblical. Besides, some groups have attacked the leadership also. As we still love them and have grave concerns for them, we hope that God will give us good opportunities to talk to them until they are restored to biblical principles in building the Church of Christ. We are willing to explain to you more on this if you so desire.
We would like to reiterate our goodwill toward you despite our disagreements. I hope to be able to fellowship with you and discuss further on several issues at stake in the near future.

Yours in Him,

Pitsanunart Sritawong and the leadership team of Hope of God churches in Thailand

Tuesday, February 3, 2009

Lawsuit amount

Below is a rough estimate of the lawsuit figure. This amount is not comfirmed but is the rough approximate of the figure, foundation is trying to get back from Dr.Dan and Ps PN.

Bearing in mind this would not be the sum we give to Dr.Dan as part of his salary. I think at leasty 10% of the collections from Bangkok and HGI will go to Dr.Dan to "help" in his work

Putting it into perspective.

If assuming in International we have 200 churches and each church gives 20% to HGI . The total taking will assuming an average of $100 per church per month

The sum on HGI collection would be $20000. If as per HGI agreement 20% of collection goes to founder it would be $4000 per month minimum of HGI money or at least 48K annual going to Dr. Dan

Law suit amount - In the thai discussion and from the video of allegation. The amount foundation is trying to get back would be as high as 60-80 million baht.

Which is around 2 million USD give or take depending on the exchange rate, which would otherwise had been Church money.


* I will also try to translate some of the thai post and provide a full translated version of Rubina's Statement. Which was shorten in the one that was presented in english. The original statment had more facts and also timeline. Hopefully it wont take too long

Monday, February 2, 2009

A picture speaks a thousand words














Attached is a picture of the current US president being prayed for. A big difference in Thailand