Comments for improvement in HGI and HIM

I have added some comments which I will tag so that it can be found next time......

Thanks for posting your views (including the suggestions for improvement) Eagle_Eye.

Since leaving Hope I have attended 2 wonderful churches in other denominations. There is no other church movement however with a vision such as Hope's and which mobilises its membership as effectively as Hope does.

The vision given to DJ is a vision from heaven - a church of tens of thousands in Bangkok would not have existed otherwise. During my time with Hope we sincerely believed it is possible to change the world right side up. Good to see HIM holding on to the vision and doubtless they will seek to add to it with God's grace.

The movement is now an "older dog". While the "old tricks" from heaven should be retained and practised there will certainly be "new tricks" the Lord is looking to impart.

Exciting times lie ahead.

August 21, 2009 10:00 AM

Anonymous said...

Very well said, Eagle_eye. The comparisons between HIM and HGI will inevitably come out as you post all these blogs and forums. They are coming out for a very good reason. People do see things that are wrong and want change. In the past, they could not speak out, now they can. People speak out because mostly, the movement is dear to them. As many have said, this movement was founded on very good principles and foundations. Even to those like myself who have left it, it is still very dear and I would love to see changes that would bring it much closer to what is right and biblical and not according to what man wants.

The forum where members can put in their opinions is a very good idea at this stage as the leaders may not be aware of all the wrong practices currently still in HIM. My experience with Hope in the past is that there are Hope churches in the international scene that are very close to Hope Bangkok practices and there are also those that are Hope but do not follow these practises, so the practise of ostracising people who leave Hope may only be carried out by a few Hope churches that are currently in HIM but it is still something that needs to be stamped out if HIM really wants to change from the past.

Another practise that I have seen time and time again is how pastors who step down and leave the movement are being treated. They step down mainly for 2 reasons - firstly, it is burn out. Secondly, they disagree with the Hope practises and want to start their own church.

In both cases, these pastors are ostracised. In the second case, they are worse than ostracised. I have seen a pastor who have left the movement to start another church being ex-communicated, false accusations being brought against that pastor and the deliberate attempt of trying to discredit his reputation. THAT IS MOST UNCHRISTIAN and double standard since on the other hand, Hope welcomes pastors together with their congregation who have left other denominations with open arms. The attempt seems to be to break that pastor so that he cannot carry on pastoring after he has left the movement. Hope will always replace that pastor anyway and restart that church.

For the pastors who leave because of burnout and cannot carry on pastoring anymore, I have seen them leaving with a lot of hurts and disillusionment, they have no job and income, they have no career left and they have families to feed, yet they are left alone with no help and care and no moral and spiritual support whatsoever. It is very sad and unchristian. Clearly, Hope has forgotten about the Good Samaritan parable.

Eagle_eye, I bring this up now because of this post hoping that something can be done in HIM in the future about all these things and I do believe that past wrongs need to be corrected. I know you are not in the HIM leadership but as you say, you may be able to speak with them and bring about change.

Thanks for reading this post.

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

This week, James Loke concludes on this subject as he elaborates on How Accountability Works.

Accountability is much related to openness and transparency.

Paul was voluntarily transparent in administering financial matters in 2 Corinthians 8:20-21. He wanted not only to be blameless but to be seen as blameless.

Accountability is not just dutiful reporting. It reinforces trust revives synergistic forces between a leader and his followers. Honest straightforward communication can powerfully bind team members together in the same direction and strengthen relations and trust as a leader leads the entire church to achieve what God has called the church to do.

Accountability does not mean explaining every measure implemented by the leader. In moments of crisis it is not expedient to hold meetings and explain everything. But the leader must be willing to give an account when called upon to do so at the appropriate time.

Being accountable also does not mean that a leader should sacrifice all privacy for himself and his family. The church should not make the same demands on their leaders as the public makes on movie stars or public figures. The constant nuisance by the paparazzi has not made movie stars more accountable in their behavior.

There has to be a balance and followers cannot expect or demand too much. They should be careful not to ask their leaders to account unnecessarily so that they can have freedom to lead without being bogged down by frivolous explaining.

Some other key attitudes that would help accountability in leadership are:

Servanthood

1 Peter 5 reminds us that a good leader sets inspiring examples instead of acting merely as a commander-in-chief. When leaders “walk the talk”, they will be inspirational.

Humility

Leaders will continually face temptation to think more highly or lowly of themselves than they are. We are all instructed by Paul to evaluate our lives with “sober judgment” in Romans 12:3. Leaders could be tempted to believe that they are above giving an account to anyone.

Honesty

Accountability works best when leaders are honest. There is always the possibility that a leader will want to look good and provide justification for wrong decisions and misguided policies rather than honestly admit his fault and apologize for his mistake.

When Accountability Fails

Accountability starts to fail if a person sins, or has a besetting sin, which is not confessed and dealt with. This occurs because of the pride of the sinner who does not want his guilt exposed and because of his shame he is unwilling to honestly face his problem. As a result he has to hide his wrong behaviour. In this condition, the sinning leader finds it difficult to reveal the truth and it may take some time before it becomes apparent to those around that something is wrong. The sinning leader seems to have a compartment of his life that he is unwilling to reveal to others. If the sin continues it is likely that lies will be told to hide the truth.

Ultimately, it is very doubtful that a church should or can implement procedures or structures to enforce accountability. This is why it is very important that a leader walks in the light in fellowship with the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:5-9). The only way that these kinds of problems can be detected early is through the discernment of the Spirit. Leaders need to be empowered by the Spirit and walk close to God; only in this way can God begin to deal with sin in the camp.

Conclusion

Biblical leaders are required to give an account for their work and ministry. There is a 360° accountability to superiors, peers and followers although the aspects of accountability to each group are different. Leaders need to walk close to God to give a good account for their life and ministry.

We thank Ian Foley, Prakich Treetasayudh and Wilson Lim who provided valuable comments to an earlier draft of this article.

Ps PN trying to split Hope International

Below was a blog taken from HIM post. As i have expressed earlier, Ps PN have been trying to split the church internationally and trying to get people to align with him

I think it has become clear that PS PN is no longer a follower of Christ. Christ said before in the last days, many will call on him and in his names drive out demons but Christ say He does not know this people.

PN has officially done what no christians or bible-believing christian should Do. He say one thing and does another. I would not be surprised he is still in relationship with the other woman. Since this issue was never resolved properly.

How in the world - Can he still preach ???? Whatever he is doing now is no longer blibical. I am sure that is why God is tearing away the people from him. All the talks is power, authority and obedience without question

It sounds so much like a power hungry person. It scarily reminds me of Hitler, Napolean and Lenin. People who demands absolute loyalty without question, regardless of obedience to Bible.
I wonder do we obey Jesus or do we obey Ps PN ???

I really hope all Hope International People and those in Thailand be aware of the schemes of PN.

Personally, when a person is drunk with power, they often do not want to give it up so easily. Secondly i think its the money. With the split PN woudl have lost quite alot of revenue especially from the International churches to fund Dr J political ambition and his Salary.

Please be aware of his intentions and pass this on to people so they are well aware.

Below is from HIM blog :

Dear Members of HIM,

In late June, PN wrote to a number of people in HIM, alleging that leaders of HIM had left HGI in a wrong manner, and called on HIM members to re-join him. A blogspot in English reiterated the same message. PN has given incomplete information and also misrepresented the facts.

We parted with the former leadership of HGI for a few reasons:

1. DJ and PN had disqualified themselves as elders according to biblical standards. PN was involved in adultery for an extended period of time. Efforts to have him fully restored were opposed by DJ. DJ separated from his wife, and encouraged various church leaders and members to participate in religious ceremonies for his political purposes, causing other believers to stumble;
2. They were not accountable to other leaders and members, especially in the area of finance. There are still ongoing investigations by the Hope of Thai People Foundation, which is the legal entity of the original Hope of Bangkok, regarding the misuse of funds involving these leaders;
3. They maintained that they had acted biblically when their actions showed otherwise.

The procedure of our parting may have surprised PN but we have good grounds to do so because:

1. DJ himself asked us to choose whether we wanted to continue with him as the apostolic covering, although he tried to backtrack later;
2. PN was removed as president and Somthob suspended as vice-president according to the procedure spelt out by HGI Licensing Policy that they had approved themselves together with other HGI elders. The reason was because PN no longer met the biblical criteria to be an elder.

PN also alleged that the present HIM leadership is improperly appointed. Actually the HIM leadership is no different from the old HGI leadership minus the top leaders who disqualified themselves. I was the remaining elder that was untainted in the whole saga following the allegations by Rubina about leadership improprieties in Bangkok in October 2008. Together with the then RMCs in HGI, I took the needed leadership in HGI. We then decided to break from the past and revamped organisationally by replacing HGI with HIM.

We are concerned that the true motive of PN is to split the existing HIM churches so that he can regain some members. We need to be aware of what has happened in Thailand since October 2008. After Rubina highlighted the misuse of funds in the Hope of Bangkok/Hope of Thai People Foundation, PN had little platform for ministry. On one occasion he was given a platform at the Windsor Hotel, Bangkok during which he managed to convince a portion of the daughter churches to come out of the Hope of Thai People Foundation umbrella.

He has continued this strategy in various forms all over Thailand. What used to be a unified family of Hope churches throughout Thailand is now fragmented into five or more groups. The church landscape in Thailand is a pitiful tragedy with brothers in Hope or ex-Hope churches fighting other brothers who used to worship together in the same church. In the midst of all this happenings, hundreds and perhaps thousands have stopped coming to church or moved to other (non-Hope) churches.

What PN is doing sounds too familiar for us not to raise the warning that he may very well attempt to do internationally what he did in Thailand. It is unusual for an outside party to write directly to you about your leaders bypassing and not even informing us. Regardless of his arguments, it seems obvious to us that he wants to have a direct communication with HIM members and very likely influence members or even leaders to leave existing HIM churches to join him.

If you have further questions, please talk to your pastor directly. Alternatively, you can write to our central HIM office through byhim.office@gmail.com. We have set up this new email address to address any issues and concerns you may have about PN’s actions.

Let us remain united together in HIM, and continue on the new chapter which we have established and are forging ahead to continue to plant churches and fulfil God’s Great Commission in our localities, countries and all over the world.

In Christ,
Pastor Simon Eng

HGI Letter ?

Well, I suppose since many people are on the blog, I believe the new statement have been send out by HGI

I am not sure if anyone has the statement in writing though, personally i do think that the statment should be made official and handed to people so that we can for once cut off ties with PN and Dr.J rather than leave doubt about our link

Someone mentioned that HGI will have a website up but I am still waiting.

In summary, the letter is

1. HGI have handed the letter of termination to PN and Dr.J both as president and as advisors
2. We will treat Dr.J as a friend only
3. We will be on our own and not join Foundation
4. we will still keep the friendship but that is about it

I think that is the summary if i am wrong please let me know as i dont have the full letter, its not on Bible discuss website. And the announcements are made by word or mouth though

Personally, i hope as leaders of God's church we will be more accountable and to realise that members are as much to the church as the leaders and we need to make everything as transparent as possible so that issues like these will not happen ever again.

Conclusion

I think the main thing is that leaders should stop treating members like children and make sure that members of the church will always be kept informed, Hope failed in the first case because information was not forthcoming and people failed to query, when something did not seem right, no one dare question Dr.J when he suddenly disappeared.

I hope this lesson will make members understand that we are also accountable to God for what happens in our church. Leaders and members alike must be good steward and ensure that we ask if we are not sure and not just take the " leaders know best answer", because if we strip down to the basic, leaders are still human and they are still like all of us, leaders will make mistakes like all of us, leaders are still prone to emotions like of us.

Remember the story of "Animal Farm" - it all started wih a good idea every animal had one common dream, a common desire. But soon corruptions took hold and the dreams soon shattered

So for us all in HGI now, we must always take the lessons from our past and make it a mistake we will not make again, for if we are to win the world first we need to win again the trust of our people that our leaders are honest, God fearing and people of integrity.

Recent news

From a post from riveroflife - it does seem that some Thailand Hope Churches have joined HGI movement rather than join PN or Rubina.

I am still not sure how many joined HGI though. But my friends in Thailand did confirm that there are Hope Churches in Thailand that joined HGI.

Address to HGI query

Below is a post and comment i thought i could help clarify

HGI - Was actually an arm under the Hope movement, i think one of my earlier post have mentioned by Rubina that HGI aim was to spearhead the international churches to reach the 2015 goal. From my understanding PN was the President and DrJ was an advisor, but since then both have been stood down.

The previous address of HGI was in Thailand Bangkok before the split, we have an office in Hope Place. But i understand before the split there was plan to move HGI to the USA. That was one of the reasons we focused alot on the America region. As we wanted a more global flavour to the movement.

As for the website - its an E-club organisation. For those in the know, its spearheaded by Brisbane. Mainly an Evangelism club. The blog is quite well-known in Oceania.

Hope this helps abit

Anonymous said...

Who or what is HGI? To those in Hope, it is assumed to be a legitimate leadership of the entire organization. In time you will realize it is a phantom organization. They make the decisions, you pay the money. You don't know who they are or what they do with the money. Ask yourself: where is the HGI headquarters? What is the address? Phone number? website? the leaders? minutes from meetings? Have you EVER seen an HGI letter head?

What kind of legitimate organization would behave like this?

Another ex-member in Asia.

February 13, 2009 7:17 AM

Anonymous said...

There's certain truth in the above post...

I only know that there's this website: http://advancehgi.blogspot.com/search/label/cover

In fact, not many members know abt this website too...

Quick Note

To help clarify, there was a big change around 1997-2002. These was around the time that Dr.J officially stepped out from HGI. IPC was still in operation and Dr.J was still teaching around until 1997, the last i saw DrJ was in Contemporary Church and he taught a couple more times before he left the Church scene. Not all the pastors took the churches with them, i can only confirm - Seattle, KL and Melbourne, so in the end we had to set up another Hope church again in that city. 2 have website which is from previous post

There were changes in leadership in many Hope Churches in HGI during the same time Dr.J stepped down around the late 90s

1. Seattle
2. Melbourne
3. Singapore
4. Perth
5. KL Malaysia
6. Canberra
7. Hong Kong

These were the more established churches, there were some which had change of leadership but were only less than 30 people. Most were pionnering churches. But to clarify there were no split of churches due to this current crisis. I do believe most HGI churches are united in their decision to split from Hope Movement.

Past Hope Church

Some links to Churches that used to be from Hope Movement,

New Hope International - http://www.newhopeinternationalchurch.org/

Reach Community - http://reachcc.org/

HGI moving on ?

As i patiently wait for more development, I think many international people especially the ancient ones at Hope - "those who have gone past the 7 year itch and still in Hope Church" are all waiting for the full official statement, there was one by Ps Simon but i think was restricted to only leaders in most churches.

As of now, I know we are staying Neutral and will not join PN nor foundation. Apparently someone from the grapevine have mentioned we might join the 3rd neutral party in Thailand who have not joined PN or foundation side.

I think in most churches the leaders know of the split but news have been in drips and draps going down to the members.

Though it might not be a nice thing to announce, but i do think it would be good that an official announcement available to the members be provided so there will be no more guessing. If we are going to join back with foundation or PN.

I know even in international, the people are still split, some support PN and would like us to join them again, some neutral, while some of course will not.

Anyway, if anyone got more info please feel free to comment on this post so we know what is latest development in the international scene.

Thanks

History of Hope International

Having been in Hope for almost 2 decades, i can truly say i have seen it all and heard it all. I thought i should also blog down a little bit of the Hope International History. No opinions but just facts so here goes.

As you know Dr.J or Dr Dan as he is called, studied in Monash University and that is where he met his wife and also received the Lord Jesus. He attended a church in Melbourne and well his history in on my other post.

In melbourne, he started a bible study class which included some core people, where he gave them intensive bible study classes. I believe Ps Simon was one of the beneficiary of the initial years. Story was told DrJ finished the bible 8 times in that 1 year.

When he went back to thailand, he returned to Melbourne to preach in a seminar organised by the Overseas Christian Fellowshop, i believe back then Melbourn already had a Hope Church. In this meeting, was the birth of the International churches.

At that time DrJ's teaching was revolutionary, I was not there but i have watched the video a number of times. I believe its called One man One world and One man Can change the world.

It inspired alot of people to actually join Hope, well if i am not wrong and dont quote me on it, but you might be surpirse to find that some of the Hope Pastor's used to be OCF leaders. The leaders included, Ps Chew Bong, Ps Peter Ting, Ps Andrew, Ps Simon, Ps Gordan, Ps Victor Soo, etc. Alot of the initial bunch of people that studied with Dr.J joined him in Hope Movement. And alot more during this conference. You could say HGI was birth out of the one meeting.


Hope Melbourne was the 1st International daughter church, followed by Seattle, then Singapore... a number of others started appearing around the world. But from my understanding, the key night was the night DrJ was invited to preach at the OCF seminar, the sudden exodus from leaders to Hope back then caused alot of friction with OCF. I think if my memory serves me right they have a constitution which states that no OCF leaders or members can be a Hope member, whatever it has toned down... that i am not too sure. Most new OCFs wont know, only the older seniors, that was way back in the early 1990s.

But something happened in 1996-1999, I to say the least was stunned when one after another, many of the 1st group of pastors started leaving Hope for one reason or another, lets just say that if you have been in Hope long enough, you will know who are those pastors, and if you are not then it won't affect you either,so i wont go repeating their stories. But at the time i did not understand why these initial leaders left because in truth these were good leaders and now i now better. Lets put it this way, if 1 or 2 leaders left, i would think its normal but more than 10 pastors left, well Now we now better.

The really funny thing though, when some pastor left Hope they also brought their members with them like in Seattle, KL and Melbourne. PN used to tell us, NEVER NEVER NEVER SPLIT THE CHURCH. Lets keep unity and if you want to go, go so by yourself , protect unity at all cost. You can ask PN if you don't believe.

Anyway, all these happen when Dr.J started entered politics and left the church to PN. He only preached in IPC ( International Pastor's conference) though. I had felt something was really wrong but couldn't understand why. I attributed it to the spiritual covering and now when all these happen, i finally realise.

As Dr.J's heart left God and pursued politics, the spiritual covering that was suppose to be there, started to crack. As he continued to lie in court about his knowledge of us, so did the blessing that was suppose to cover our pastor.

When PN and DrJ talk about spiritual covering, the person providing the covering must first live a life that is worthy of such annointing. If blessings are suppose to flow from Top Down, but the top are not living a life worthy of men of God. Then how are we the ones in the middle and the bottom suppose to receive the annointing of the Hope Umbrella ?

There was alot of theory in my mind back then, i could not place my finger on it. But, something was not right, we had all the right principles, understanding, the blueprint and yet most of our Hope Churches stuggle to hit 1000 with the exception of Hope Singapore of course. Singapore is a very blessed country, almost every church there is a mega church.

Initially i blamed the pastors for leaving us, but now i understand, if almost 90% of the initially 1st flock left in about the same time, it could not have been their fault. Now the secret is out, all alog when the real man behind Hope ( DrJ) was disowning us apparently for our sake. How could God give us the covering.

We have to remember, even though PN was the official Head of Hope, Dr.J was still the leader of the movement and the one directing the vision and direction of the church. PN is his brother-in-law.

Now if you ask me, maybe it has been the best decision so far for HGI to leave the covering of PN and Dr.Dan. I would hate to see more pastors leaving Hope and getting burned out. I know HGI would be better off this way.

There are alot of good leaders in HGI and i think HGI will go far under a different covering from PN and Dr.Dan.