Friday, February 27, 2009

Where to find facts

I thought i better give some small summary as i was asked if I have facts to substantiate the issues

I will just summarize here so it can be a one look thing

Please note that some posts like : Future ahead are just questions we need to ask and there is no facts needed. Unless i am reporting a factual issue, i think i could not possibly offer facts on my own opinion on the incident. But where facts are involved, i have highlighted it.

Unless i missed out something. Please let me know

1. idolatory issue and teaching on worship idols


- the teaching is shown in the Video post from Foundation i posted up
- Statements were issued previously by North America churches in Hope regarding the issue ( documents with signatures available from post and also in
- There is a video of the full teaching its in thai and big file so cannot put up ( but foundation have put up the relevant portion)
- 18 page statement ( PN have not been able to defend as of now - he has chosen to remain silent )

2. Finance and money used for Dr.J

- 18 page statement ( PN did not deny) this fact
- Elders meeting minutes which spoke about money transfer ( in post ) and in PDF
- Receipt of money transfer from HGI ( shown in video)
- Ps Somptop one of the account holders ( please note account Hope have a number of accounts and the correct procedure was all money to go to foundation and then the money will be disbursed out according) did not deny about the money being used - ( in the Foundation video - show the meeting when they had a members meet and tell session )
- Video shows also a wife of a former secretary " who ran away" because He knew the moeny issue was illegal and wrong. The wife went on the meet and tell and showed the letter her husband wrote and also begged him to come home ( the man ran away )
- Amount owed is still being finalised, but its going to the courts

3. Adultery issue of PN

- This is fact because it is reported by all Pastors from HGI so it cannot be false : my pastor have mentioned and also top leaders have not denied this happened check with your pastor
- Ps PK has issued a first statement about this
- PK has 2 other letters : one to state his intention and the other i heard ( this is have not seen) is to apologise for being too blunt.

4. Dr Dan or Dr J

Separation from wife
- mentioned in PK letter
- Dr.J's closet aide did not deny the issue

Mobilising of member to help in his election and changing their address so they can support kriengsak
- Ask the gound members in Hope Bangkok
- No one deny this fact, the bangkok regions have worked tirelessly during his campign
- This is an open secret
- Foundation I believe have prove ( ask them if you want to )

Denial of being founder of Hope
- My post have evidence of his old letters
- An article by Charisma magazine
- Apostle of Hope by Carolyn Boyd ( i think out of print )
- There is court transcript ( highlighted in my post ) showing he deny knowledge about being Hope founder

5. HGI going independent

- I am sure this fact i dont have to prove, as its already announced by individual churches
- Letter by Ps Simon ( If you want can ask your leader to show you )
- HGI in all i believe have issued 3 letters ( the whole reason well - go to

6. Some thai churches joined Hope

- Yes there is
- Some thai church pastors have announced to their members
- If you want to confirm can ask people in Nexus Bangkok chruch or your leaders to confirm
- There are a number of churches that joined HGI mainly those who had stayed neutral

7. PN splitting the church
- In video
- Also widely known fact : they already have their own website

8. About PN side always asking people to just submit to authority
- You have to understand thai ( discussion between pro and non-pro PN supporters)
- Church members who listen to the sermons on Sunday
- Their key verse is the last post i put up Obey your leaders.

I think thats about it .... for those asking about fact and evidence. I cannot think of other things i mention that need evidence.

I hope this helps.


Anonymous said...

you people are DISGUSTING!!! you have just shown me that you 'christians' are just the same as non. i'm better off without being a 'christian'! fighting with one another online? Thanks you HYPOCRITES! i definitely don't see how god exists through this website. if he does? i think he'll burn you in hell for how u treat one another!

Anonymous said...

This does seem disgusting, but consider the alternative of doing nothing? Corruption would continue or worse, spread. I'm certain this blog wasnt created to evangelize or to build up a person's faith, or to prove that God exists or not.

Anonymous said...

I just thought some of us may benefit from the following article:


"Before You Leave, Part 1"
by Dan Reiland

Making a change from one church to another can be the healthy, right and God-directed thing to do. I want to stress in part one of this two part series that it's important to leave at the right time in the right way. I want to talk with you, as a pastor, on life and ministry before you leave. Part two will deal with life and ministry before a church member leaves.

Pastor, sometimes it's difficult to know how and when to leave. Let alone discerning the right reason. Obviously, if you are fired, most options are eliminated and leaving on a high note is a challenge. But candidly, it's done all the time. Even under adverse circumstances you can still leave well. For the good of the church, through a series of mature conversations, both parties agree to a resignation and a win-win is created. That is the best route if a termination may be inevitable.

There are other troubling circumstances that make leaving difficult such the case with a church is meaner than a junk yard dog. These churches are sometimes called "Pastor Eaters." The church extends an invitation with smiles and apple pie -- then chews the pastor up and spits him out. Believe or not these churches exist. I hope you are not at one, but just in case. They are usually run by a church boss who intimidates everyone. (Or sometimes the church is run by a few key families who have been there for a very long time.) If you start to change too many things, or gain too much influence, you may be out. The amazing thing is that the often near evil tactics of the church boss are tolerated by the rest of the church members! The members say things like, "Well, the pastor will leave in a couple years any way and I've been friends with Harvey (the church boss) for 30 years!" My advice is to leave as fast as you can. Those people will have to account to God one day. So shake the Bermuda from your loafers and seek a congregation that wants to see the Great Commission come alive! If you must, take a secular job for a short time. Better to enjoy life and your family rather than be held hostage by a "mean" church.

More than the difficult church settings, I want to focus on getting clarity on leaving a normal and healthy church. What should happen before you leave? I'm referring to the many churches that you and leaders like you may serve where things are going anywhere from okay to good and even great.

Because there are literally limitless numbers of possible scenarios, I will pose seven questions for you to ponder and answer. If you cover these well you will have the insight you need to leave at the right time in the right way. Or perhaps discover that you should not leave at all.

Have you given 100% of your effort and energy?

Every church deserves your best shot. Have you worked smart and worked hard? Be careful not to get sidetracked with "stuff" on the side. You may have freedoms to teach or write or consult or whatever, but always keep your church in first position. Make your church your priority. When time constraints become tight, cut the "outside" stuff for a season. Your freedoms may be of a different kind, like how you use your day. Going to the gym, having lunch with your wife and seeing your child sing in the school play are all good, but don't count them as work time.

Here's my point. Don't leave if you haven't given it your all. You may be surprised at the difference in results and get excited about staying.

Do you have a sense that you have completed what God sent you to do?

What were your dreams and visions when you came to the church? Have you fulfilled them? Are you happy with the results of your leadership? Is there more that you know you can accomplish?

There is a difference between restless and finished. As a leader, you may be restless, but you need to finish well. If you haven't truly landed a clear vision, you owe it to yourself (as a growing leader) and to the church to stay until you at least give it a try. I promise that if you fail at your best effort for the vision, that is so much better than succeeding at mediocre same old -- same old Sunday after Sunday ministry. Safe feels good in the moment but it's empty in the long run.

Are you leaving the church in a good financial situation?

These are tough economic times in which to make this a reality. But even now you can lead in smart and prudent ways to keep the church in a stable financial position.

You may be sensing a stir within to leave, but if six more months or so of your consistent leadership would strengthen the church's financial position, then staying may be the right thing to do.

Paying down debt, finishing a capital campaign, completing a building project, or even smaller things like refinancing a key loan in the church can make a big difference in your legacy as a pastor. Maybe just preaching a strong tithing series, whatever it is, be sure you have done all you can do.

Are you considering leaving because you are tired or frustrated?

We've all experience the Monday morning blues where we'd take nearly any call that comes in for a new church. That's not the time to go. The steeple may be taller and the pay may be higher, but the grass is never greener. Every church environment and culture has its challenges. It's true that some have more than others, but this side of heaven there is no perfect church.

You may just need a good vacation. Get some rest. If you've been there for more than ten years, perhaps a short sabbatical is in order. It's amazing how that can change your perspective. Something as simple as relaxation can give you great clarity on leaving or staying. And if you are to leave, it helps you leave with the right spirit.

If you are frustrated about something, or perhaps you are under a lot of pressure, try bringing in a consultant to help you think through the issues.

Are all relationships, as far as it depends on you, in peace?

Don't leave if there are relationships that need to be cleaned up but you don't want to do it. You will regret leaving relationships undone. Not everyone wants to be at peace with you. That's not your responsibility, but for all those where peace is possible, you take the lead and get healing, harmony or at least agree to disagree. If you are to leave, it's such a breath of fresh air to know that you love the people and they love you.

Have you discussed this with those in your inner circle?

What do those closest to you think? Is this the right time? Would you be leaving the church in good shape or at a low? What does your spouse and key advisors think?

Ultimately you must decide, but never make this decision rashly or without counsel. Too much is at stake. Leaving the right way or leaving at all is a big deal. It's a major stress in your life and the life of your church.

Again, are you able to lead your church to the next level but just don't want to because you want something new? If you can take it to the next level, and the people will follow, it is likely that you have another season in front of you at your current church.

Do you have a clearance from God that you are released from your ministry?

This is the bottom line. What does God say? If He says go then go. But candidly I have found that if you can't answer the kinds of questions above with ease and integrity, you may be listening to yourself more than God. I don't mean that harshly, I would just hate to see you make a move when it wasn't time, or if you haven't done what you need to do.

Of course there are other things for you to consider before you leave, but these will get you well on your way to discovering the answer and doing it the right way.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, forgot to attach the link to the article:

The Pastors Coach is designed to refresh, encourage, and equip pastors as they rise to the challenges in the church. Written by executive pastor and leadership development specialist Dan Reiland, Pastor's Coach addresses the thorny issues facing ministry leaders, and offers valuable advice to help pastor's lead effectively. Pastor's Coach puts pastoring in perspective, and offers a much needed reminder as to why ministering in the church is such an admirable calling. At INJOY, we have a deep respect for pastors and an appreciation for the care they provide. Pastor's Coach is one small way we can say thank you!

Financial Ark said...

We call them still: ‘friends’.
We separate from our 'parents' and are absolutely incompetent of solving this issue and continue to play church.
Those who exposed the sin: they are excommunicate. Those who are clearly in the wrong: we call 'friends'.

In all of this I can see a large tear drop. One that belongs to God as honestly, only Jesus Christ's heart is really hurt. Admittedly: so are many believers.

“ Nothing so offends the heart of God as when children or new believers are caused to sin. (Matthew 18:6)

Prayer: “ Jesus, forgive us for following divisions and splits to become so ingrained in Christianity. We confess that we are easily manipulated by false issues. Jesus, make us instruments of healing and restoration to your Kingdom. Help us to work with you (humility) to unite your Church and prepare your Bride. Help us to see the real issue: in all diversity, will we remain united? In your name Jesus Christ, let us all pray…Amen.

Anonymous said...

let this saga be a lesson for all Christians. God will not be mocked! We must do God's work God's way otherwise whatever that displeases Him will be exposed. We need to move on and repair the damage done so that none will fall away because of the scandal.