Reply by AKI

You quote Hebrew 13:17 but lesser these verses?

Quote:

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

1Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

It is useless to use Hebrew 13:17 if it is not God's conformed to other God's commandment.

Shall we follow the leaders who commit idolatry?

Does God really want us to obey the leaders than Himself?

I show you Deut 13 to declare the teaching and allowance of teaching to commit idolatry are so serious in God's sight. If you see from these verses, anyone can stone those who committed.

Does God want the church full of the submission to authority but commit to idolatry?

Or He wants His church to be purified and love him whole-heartedly.

My interpretation from His words is so simple.

Quote:

Matt 22:37-39
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Love God first.

Secondly, You refer to Jdg 21:25.

Do I commit like that? What do I interpret the Words of God unfaithfully?

For me, simply is the best.

From Ps Stephen about PK situation

Below is a reply from one of the thai pastor... as you can see.. its always the same verse. Obey leader, submit to them ....

mmmm.... EVEN If THEY SIN AND DISOBEY GOD ? Actually its wrong, below is just a Thai culture response not a GODLY one.

Just ONE CASE... why in the world can PN commit adultery yet be still allowed to lead ?? Its wrong.. I HAVE NOT HEARD ONE PASTOR IN THE WESTERN WORLD ever could stay in leadership without first stepping down.

SIN is still SIN... AKI is correct..... GOD has very STRICT STRICT LAWS AND BEHAVIOR FOR LEADERS. IN FACT LEADERS ARE EXPECTED TO LIVE A HIGHER STANDARD, if leaders can committ adultery and stay as leaders... WHAT DOES IT SAY TO THE MEMBERS ???

GOD's law must be obeyed especially the 10 commandments.. this 10 laws are irrevocable. NO one can tell me 10 commandment do not apply in our present day- adultery, murder, stealing, coveting .... . If so, i am 100% sure, no mainstream churches will ever agree.

But this is the response ... i mention shows a sad truth who do we really serve God or LEADER ?

stephenp22

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Joined: November 23rd, 2008, 3:50 pm
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Re: ลองอ่านความเห็นของ อ.PK จาก London, UK

DEAR AKI,
Thanks for your bible verses, however, it will become riot simply without this scripture
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.

In Judges say : Jdg 21:25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.
THANKS TO BE CALM AND PATIENT, DON'T USE ANGER. "Am I the one that you should be angry with?"

*TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE TRULY, we might need to know how to INTERPRETE the Bible properly as well, otherwise, it will be a big mess and we will have our own interpretation.* To make sure you guys will understand I will try to write in Thai for the sake of people who pass by and read. I will write in another window.

Thanks & love,
We are still brothers & sisters right!

Story from Hope London

Aki

Assistant Professor

Joined: October 27th, 2008, 4:25 pm
Posts: 1359

Re: ลองอ่านความเห็นของ อ.PK จาก London, UK

How long we conform to the regulation human made moreover than the biblical words.

Let me show you.

Quote:

Matt 15:7-9
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

How we should we deal with who committed the idolatry?

Quote:

Deut 13:1-5
1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

From these words, if this subject happened in Israel. I will be the first one who stone Dr. J and A. Jabb. But we are in non-believer country. So Romans 13:1-7 are still valid and make us cannot stone whom deserve.

And what should we do for those who allows teaching about ability to commit idolatry? Let me show you again.

Quote:

Deut 13:12-18
12 ¶If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.

Right, they should be all destroyed with the whole city if applicable.

Thus, what should we do in the real world?

Destroy their credibilities is perfect for my sight.

Do I have no love for those people?

For God's sake, I must do love God and His name more.

Turn back to Ps PK letter. For my opinion, he did less than God's standard for those who committed to idolatry.

If anyone want to object my opinion, show me your biblical words, not any regulation made by men.

PS PK issue Hope London

Penguin

Assistant Professor

Joined: November 3rd, 2008, 11:23 pm
Posts: 1029

Re: ลองอ่านความเห็นของ อ.PK จาก London, UK

Dear Ps. Stephen,

Many of us in BBD are fluent in English. You can use English/Thai or whatever languages you are comfortable with to communicate to us your fullest opinion. And I think we understand you.

1. You suspect that Ps.PK's act is against biblical teachings.

Ans: It is not. It's just against regulation within our church. Is the church's regulation is greater than Mosaic Law?

2. The public rebuke is improper.

Ans: Perhaps you didn't read (1 Timothy 5:19-20) Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning. (NASB)

By reading the Bible thoroughly, you may understand us that we have already tried our best to show Ps PeN the love of God.

I'm in great pain. My pain is no lesser than Ps PeN's. Please understand me as well, please understand me with the same measure you try to understand Ps PeN.

Please protect us with the same attempt you have tried to protect Ps PeN.

HOWEVER, what you thought that Dr.J has no authority over our church.

It is simply wrong.

Update on Ps PK email

A post from one of the pastor from Hope perth... to Ps PK letter. which would be a typical thai response.

One interesting fact is that I do think Ps PK is right, because it does seem a double standard. from the email it seems that we value people more than we value God's law which is sad .

What PK said is not wrong. In a NORMAL CHURCH a pastor who commits adultery would have to be stepped down but yet not in Thailand ??? Why ??

There are evidence of

1. illegal financial activity ... which in election law is forbidden to do YET it was done with the leaders approval ???

2. there is video teachings of the idol worship and what Rubina showed is also true ?

3. The leaders are not leading a life mentioned IN THE BIBLE ... to be above reproach ...but YET it seems that MEMBERS should submit and obey and not question the action of the leaders EVEN If there are prove of things NOT IN LINE WITH THE BIBLE TEACHING ..

It is so so dangerous to worship people and listen to people... without first making sure the LEADERS we follow ARE TRULY GODLY PEOPLE.

LEADERS TITLE ARE GIVEN BY MEN ... who gave the title Pastor ? Who gives the role of leader ? Its actually PEOPLE ... people who see that their LIFES are worthy of such title.
It will be a sad day in the history of Hope of Hope when we follow PEOPLE instead of GOD.

And all we see people use are words like submission, obedience and unity without first making sure other prerequisite is in place for the leaders like...

1. Honesty
2. Integrity
3. Life above reproach


It is with honour that i salute Ps PK for his honesty. A SIN IS A SIN.. WE CANNOT COVER SIN AND CALL IT A WHITE SIN. A LIE IS A LIE, THERE IS NO TWO WAYS.




Majesty

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Joined: November 18th, 2008, 10:32 am
Posts: 118

Re: ลองอ่านความเห็นของ อ.PK จาก London, UK

DEAREST PS.PK TSE,


Thanks a lot for your Christmas Greetings with interesting storiesabout Hope Leadership of which I have been observing for over 2 monthsnow.

I would like you to know that I have the same zeal for theKingdom as you have, that's why I have been serving for over 20 yearsas God's servant as well.

I have learnt a lot from many mistakes in my past by stepping down as a pastor during the economical crisis inHatyai

(where you've also lost one unit of condo there and I had tried tofollow up but the company closed down, sorry for that),

now thank Godthat he has called me back to the ministry in Perth, Australia of which I really love this family and I follow Ps.Simon's &Ps.Wilson'sdirection to stand in neutral

during this time and do not overact (although I think I know a lot since I am a Thai, receiving all info.daily from many pastors & friends in Thailand from all parties)

What I am doing now are:

1) Although I know many facts, but the evidences are not with me or Ican't show to all the people I am communicating with, therefore, Iwill not make any statement as a

'Judgmental Sentence' over ourleaders by emailing to all the people whom I can't provide evidence.In people's eyes, it will become only an allegation still.

2) Although I have all the evidences and witnesses, I might need toprovide the said evidence to all people whom I am emailing to them.

3) I don't think I am a Judge in judging our leader's sin or I am theone to expose their sins, even if it istrue.

4) I am seeking the UNITY among all pastors in Oceania first since Iam still under their covering because, they have not sinned in anyway.

5) Since 10 years ago, Dr.J left our movement, I took that he has nodeal with our church anymore since in Bkk we had farewelled him to goto political areas.

I think that we should only deal with Ps.... atthe moment.

My humble suggestion is that: We should all work through our existingor closest leaders to find,

at least, unity in a level to resolve thisissue/crisis which is the greatest ever in our moment calmly and withgood conscience, knowing we are all sinners and no one is perfect

yet.Please don't do this way which is so hostile to our leader, at least,they have been also serving and doing some good things throughout 20years,

if he needs to step down, should we kick him out like a dog? ordo it more gently than this!

'How should we deal with a servant ofGod who haddone wrong in biblical way?'BY THE WAY, this is just an example (real one),

I have received yourresponse on 'HI 5' about 2 times attaching with a PORNOGRAPHY to mybig surprise! it is from Ps. PK Tse (Hope UK)

The Evidence is stillwith me now BUT I ALWAYS THINK THAT THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE, believingon your good side, I never expose to anyone.

However, I still believethat it must be an accident even now but please check it through,otherwise,

you might be sending some other porno to others which isnot me next time.

I'm so sorry to give this kind of big analogy, good sermon from what Ilearn from my Bible Schools here in Australia must give a goodIllustration that really hit!

so that people can truly understand it.Hope this help also.However, I love you with the love of the Lord,

I still confirm tostand in neutral and don't side on anyone neither Ps.... nor the Hope Foundation led by Mrs Rubina who had alsodone a violent thing causes

thousand of souls to be lost at themoment.

(She sent out the allegations not only all leaders but membersand new believers with outsiders Christians and even non-believers)

May the Lord bless you all during this Christmas Season and New Year to come.

HAVE A GREAT TIME BROTHER & SISTERS,WITH A GREAT HUMILITY,

Stephen PitavanikHope Perth Christian Church

Ps PK Hope London follow-up letter

*Dear Hope Family,*
**
Please delete this e-mail if you do not want to know the truth and learn from mistakes made. If you do, read on.

I have been getting various responses to my last two e-mails. One of you said my statements were very strong. In fact God's statement would be much stronger because He will do so with the fire of hell.

My statement may come across as resentful. Actually I wrote it prayerfully and calmly. If Dr. J had agreed for Ps. ... to step down from leadership and be restored through counselling, the matter could have been dealt with quickly and peacefully. Ps. ...'s apology would also bring healing and forgiveness to those affected. What I am doing is really to save Dr. J and Ps. ... before it is too late.

The statement is to expose sins that Hope leaders/members in the know were too scared to speak out about. That is not Bibilcal at all. Sins and darkness belongs to the devil. The statement also serves as a strong warning that God is cleansing His Church before the Lord's glorious return. All of us should wake up, take note and learn from the mistakes made.

God's standards on overseers are crystal clear:-

**

*[1 Tim 3:2,4,5 NIV]*

2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.

5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)



*[Titus 1:6-8 NIV]*

6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless — not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain.

8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.



God's Word on sexual adultery is even stronger:-



*[Prov 6:27-29,32 NIV]*

27 Can a man scoop fire into his lap without his clothes being burned?

28 Can a man walk on hot coals without his feet being scorched?

29 So is he who sleeps with another man's wife; no one who touches
her will go unpunished.

32 But a man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so
destroys himself.



Some of you asked for evidences. Would I have made such serious allegations without them? They have been brought by at least 2 or 3 witnesses. I am merely exposing it so that the others may take warning.



*[1 Tim 5:19-21 NIV]*

19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought
by two or three witnesses.

20 Those who sin are to be *rebuked publicly, so that the others may
take warning. *

21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect
angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing
out of favouritism.


Finally, let us learnt from Ted Haggard, a sinner pastor who has truly
repented [attached]

**
*Enter The Land,*
Pk

A letter from PK

	ลองอ่านความเห็นของ อ.PK จาก London, UK เชิญชมครับ ตรงไป ตรงมาดี....หน้าที่ 1 PK’s Personal Opinion on Dr. J & Ps. P N in relation to the Current situation in Hope Thailand I have prayerfully considered the current situation in Hope Thailand and I offer the following opinion: When I first heard about the church split in Hope Thailand in November, my first thought was reconciliation. That is what Jesus died for. I have loved the Hope Of God Movement since Day 1 (Oct. 1993), because I have always believed it to be a Biblical church founded by a Teaching Apostle Dr. Joseph. I gave up my high flying career in Hong Kong to pursue a career of doing God’s will, as powerfully portrayed by the Founder (although I have never regretted doing it, even now). When I have gathered more facts about the circumstances that led to the current dire situation in Hope Thailand, I feel violated and deceived by the top leadership whom I have always loved and trusted. I have lost my complete respect and trust of Ps. P N for the following reasons: 1) As the President of the HOG Movement, he is given the divine authority to lead and govern with purity and integrity. When someone in that position has committed sexual adultery consistently over a number of years, whilst preaching the Word of God every week, the person has clearly lost the sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and the conviction of sin. 2) When he was confronted with evidences of his ill conduct and was forced to admit the sin, he chose to split the church in order to safeguard his own position. I have lost my respect and trust of Dr. J for the following reasons: 1) He pursues a career in politics against all odds: a) He separated from the wife when she disagreed with his career in politics. His own teaching below (on A Family Church) admitted the value of his wife’s opinion. “The point is very clear that husbands must take the leadership. However, good leaders are those who listen to people under their care. Good leaders are more than willing to listen and humble themselves in order to do whatever is God’s best. When I say lead, I don’t mean despotism. Very often, wives have great opinions that are truly from God. Husbands should have very big ears! They should listen with respect. I can say with all honesty that many times my wife’s advice has saved my neck. She is a woman of great wisdom. She may not be as “intelligent” as I am, but she is much wiser! I know that it behoves me to listen very carefully. Typically I invite her opinion, even provoke it out of her if I have to, because I consider it of immense value. What a wife says deserves careful and prayerful consideration before God and in the Word. We must have the courage to listen, but also to act, so we don’t end up pushing all the decision-making onto her. In any case, if the Holy Spirit is leading in your home, I suspect husband and wife will agree most of the time anyway. Only in exceptional circumstances does the husband have to take a definite lead in a way that he really feels is God’s direction.”
	Although Dr. J considers his wife to be a woman of great wisdom (in his own words), he clearly felt it was God’s direction for him to move in politics, to the extent of willing to separate from the wife. b) His older son Paul is at a lost of what the father is up to, whilst the younger son Pete is under the care of a surrogate mum Sis. Sutanee. The family is broken. c) He compromised God’s principle of “there shall be no other gods before me” when he practiced Buddhist rituals. d) There has been no success in the many years of his political career. Would God not bless him if it is God’s will? e) No 21st century politician in a democratically elected government has the freedom and clout to preach Jesus as the only way to heaven, when the political world is moving in the direction of a One-World Government and a One-World Religion. 2) I heard from Ps. Prakich that Dr. J maintains that as long as Ps. P N has repented,he should be allowed to continue in his current senior role. How can Ps. P N lead the Movement in his unrestored condition? 3) Dr. J is not accountable to anyone. In Conclusion: In Hope, we are taught a lot about submitting to leaders and divine authority. It is Bibilcal and I subscribe to it fully that divine authority is a blessing. But, in my personal opinion, both men have lost that authority when they follow their own way, instead of God’s way. I do not think both Dr. J and Ps. P N understand the hurt and betrayal they have caused to their flock, many of whom have forsaken everything to serve under their leadership. The covering that Dr. J claimed to provide to the Movement is frankly not credible and full of holes. In my personal opinion, both leaders are no longer men of honour and integrity, and both have broken their covenant with the rest of the Hope Family. If Ps. P N still considers himself a Christian, he would take the honorable step to apologize to the membership and step down from leading Hope of God International and allow himself to be restored. Humbly in Christ, Pk