I was pondering about this recently and it just seems so coincidental that God was showing me things i never pondered about in the bible. I was speaking to a number of friends today and it just struck me like a thunder bolt.
Of all the greatest test, the test of wealth has always been the key. Most of Jesus parables were dealing with the issue of money. Jesus even affirmed this fact in the bible, that we cannot serve two masters and the two He spoke were God and Mammon ( God of money).
Why is money such an important indicator -
Money is neither good nor bad. But everything in this world needs money for it to work
When we are hungry, we pray and someone bring us out to eat or cook for us. Guess what, it cost money to buy food
When we are ill and have to see doctor, Guess what we need money to go to hospital. If we have insurance, it is still money that bought the insurance
When we need a church building, we pray God answers prayer and people give, guess what, money to buy the building.
So money is the medium and the test, but one of the greatest problem with money is that it has an awesome power to corrupt, it is like a drug, when you have, you want more. Because money can buy you things you always wanted and you thought you never could have.
It is note worthy to point out that Judas was the treasurer, the one who controlled the money for the group, the one who got corrupted by the desire. The fact remains, when we are in contact with money, there is always a desire to own it and to want it.
Thus we should always treat money with care and especially if the money belongs to the church, we should make sure no one ends up like Judas because there was no accountability.
If you really want to know your pastor, just see how he handles money, you can tell more about a person in the way they handle money, then a thousand explanation.
I thought I should bring this up because my friend from years back who have returned to Singapore spoke recently about a Church in Singapore called City Harvest. where the pastor and 17 church leaders were brought to CAD regarding on some issues about money. I really hope that when the investigation is done, the church will be clean. Some years back, I think even Hillsongs from Australia was queried over some transactions
What i am trying to say is this, Pastors are still human, if you give them unlimited access to church fund without proper accountability, one day they might turn to Judas. There is always a reason why we need check and balance. Remember that for anyone in finance, if we knowingly do things which are not proper and above board. You might end being implicated as well.
Make sure whatever you do, it is well documented and written. Especially loans, financial packages, special or noteworthy transactions. Keep it as transparent as possible, this way you will not have to always watch your back.
Judas took the test and he failed. Lets not become like him.
Showing posts with label General article. Show all posts
Showing posts with label General article. Show all posts
Sunday, June 6, 2010
Monday, May 17, 2010
Free Forum to share
hi everyone,
As promised way back early in my posting days, i did mention that one day I will give people more voice in what is happening around the Hope Movement.
Be it good or bad. Or even sharing of blessing.
I will slowly transition to a more open forum based blog so that people can give their idea and thoughts rather then just me alone.
Of course blessings or encouragement is greatly welcome too.
But this blog will always serve as a voice for the people to allow all Hope and Ex-hope people a common place to share our thoughts.
It is important too to provide a place to find out about our church history. Maybe who knows this will be a place where the history of hope can be found.
Hopefully this way, when leaders try to hide anything, they will think twice.
I will take some time to do a better upgrade to provide a more friendly webpage
As promised way back early in my posting days, i did mention that one day I will give people more voice in what is happening around the Hope Movement.
Be it good or bad. Or even sharing of blessing.
I will slowly transition to a more open forum based blog so that people can give their idea and thoughts rather then just me alone.
Of course blessings or encouragement is greatly welcome too.
But this blog will always serve as a voice for the people to allow all Hope and Ex-hope people a common place to share our thoughts.
It is important too to provide a place to find out about our church history. Maybe who knows this will be a place where the history of hope can be found.
Hopefully this way, when leaders try to hide anything, they will think twice.
I will take some time to do a better upgrade to provide a more friendly webpage
Wednesday, April 21, 2010
The current Hope
Here is a reply to a comment posted regarding our Hope movement.
I have been observing for awhile now to see any big changes happening in the Hope Movement after the split, I must say we are still getting there.
The Hope Movement have split now for slightly over a year. In Hope Bangkok, there have been big changes happening everyday. Daily you will hear people moving and new churches starting up.
Foundation have split into many smaller churches and are now around 200-300 people. Ps Nimit started a new church as I reported earlier.
Ps PN too have their own issue and split, though its slightly more minor then Foundation. Most split churches have used New Church names to disassociate from Hope Brand name and have either become independent or joined the HIM banner.
Ps PN have been able to go on preaching because no one stood up to make a stand, to inform the Christian circle of his misdeed. In other part of Christiandom, pastor who committed adultery will be asked to step down, but not so for Ps PN.
It does feel every top leader missed the point, PN should never be allowed to take the pulpit without first stepping and proving his integrity and morality. Neither HIM nor Pastors in Thailand have said anything publicly except Ps PK from Hope London, and for that i admire his righteousness, some pastor felt it was too strong, but not me, I call a spade a spade.
Hope's greatest failing is that it always chooses the diplomatic route, instead of standing for what is right. When members sin, we are always quick to pinpoint members sin, but when a leader sin, we are always told to be understanding and be "nice".
In the international scene, under HIM 2 churches have decided to go independent as mentioned in previous article.
Have HIM change ? I think its trying. I see leaders trying to make a difference. We held conference called rediscovering our core. We try to put things right, but as is with big organization everything takes time. Some people have chose to leave Hope instead of waiting, some like me are still waiting to see.
Issues in Hope
Money - Yes money have been a sticking point in Hope, from its inception. We used to have the HGI tithes of 20%, which I have tried asking but no one could account for the money in there. Hope in general have been quite lax in this area i must admit. There is no clear policy or guideline about the use of money in terms of salary package, what is reimbursable cost, etc. Some region do have a guideline on pay package but from my knowledge its up to own church to decide and very region specific - which is all i can say. Some churches are better at handling money and some not so. Hope Singapore would be financially the most stable church. I know this area is a very sticky area and HIM may not want to touch this aspect as of now. I think if i am not wrong, they are trying to set-up a general policy for all HIM churches but its still in the early stage
Shepherding - I don't think anything will change in this area. BGR policy and how we function in the system will always be very subjective. The idea of shepherding is a good one, but the quality and type of advice and shepherding will always be dependent on the shepherd you get. Not all shepherd are the same, because the truth is some do become shepherd too fast and may not have enough experience or understanding to handle sheep. I have always believe, the title of shepherd must be first earned with your life and example.
Transparency and obedience - Transparency is something HIM is trying hard to build. Its still not easy. There is over 20 plus years of Hope Ideology which i must admit are not all good. The problem we have is applying principle into practical everyday living, which is totally impossible. We build rules and regulation we apply across the board, not factoring other circumstances. In principle, we teach people to love and serve God, which is right. But in Hope's understanding serving means - use your time to meet, follow-up, shepherding, leadership training, run care group, church plant, anything else is not important. The truth is God created us all different, with different gifting, different way of life and interest, we love God by putting God central of what we do. We can serve God too by studying doing well at school and be a testimony, we can play music, open business and support the church by other means. Rigidity had always been our problem. We must start to learn from other churches around the world too. Whatever we will be able to break the mold will largely depend on the leaders leading HIM. I suppose this will be awhile before we see any major shift in paradigm
Conclusion
Because Hope HIM is very much still a very "young" organization, which has just gone through a huge split and shaking. I don't foresee significant change that soon. I think we must all understand, if the top leaders hit the wrong note too soon, who knows more churches will decide to come out and become independent. Its really a catch 22 situation . So all i can say is pray and keep faith.
Set a dateline for yourself, if you still don't see the change you desire or course you can go to other church where you can serve better. Don't stay bitter, just become better.
Amen
I have been observing for awhile now to see any big changes happening in the Hope Movement after the split, I must say we are still getting there.
The Hope Movement have split now for slightly over a year. In Hope Bangkok, there have been big changes happening everyday. Daily you will hear people moving and new churches starting up.
Foundation have split into many smaller churches and are now around 200-300 people. Ps Nimit started a new church as I reported earlier.
Ps PN too have their own issue and split, though its slightly more minor then Foundation. Most split churches have used New Church names to disassociate from Hope Brand name and have either become independent or joined the HIM banner.
Ps PN have been able to go on preaching because no one stood up to make a stand, to inform the Christian circle of his misdeed. In other part of Christiandom, pastor who committed adultery will be asked to step down, but not so for Ps PN.
It does feel every top leader missed the point, PN should never be allowed to take the pulpit without first stepping and proving his integrity and morality. Neither HIM nor Pastors in Thailand have said anything publicly except Ps PK from Hope London, and for that i admire his righteousness, some pastor felt it was too strong, but not me, I call a spade a spade.
Hope's greatest failing is that it always chooses the diplomatic route, instead of standing for what is right. When members sin, we are always quick to pinpoint members sin, but when a leader sin, we are always told to be understanding and be "nice".
In the international scene, under HIM 2 churches have decided to go independent as mentioned in previous article.
Have HIM change ? I think its trying. I see leaders trying to make a difference. We held conference called rediscovering our core. We try to put things right, but as is with big organization everything takes time. Some people have chose to leave Hope instead of waiting, some like me are still waiting to see.
Issues in Hope
Money - Yes money have been a sticking point in Hope, from its inception. We used to have the HGI tithes of 20%, which I have tried asking but no one could account for the money in there. Hope in general have been quite lax in this area i must admit. There is no clear policy or guideline about the use of money in terms of salary package, what is reimbursable cost, etc. Some region do have a guideline on pay package but from my knowledge its up to own church to decide and very region specific - which is all i can say. Some churches are better at handling money and some not so. Hope Singapore would be financially the most stable church. I know this area is a very sticky area and HIM may not want to touch this aspect as of now. I think if i am not wrong, they are trying to set-up a general policy for all HIM churches but its still in the early stage
Shepherding - I don't think anything will change in this area. BGR policy and how we function in the system will always be very subjective. The idea of shepherding is a good one, but the quality and type of advice and shepherding will always be dependent on the shepherd you get. Not all shepherd are the same, because the truth is some do become shepherd too fast and may not have enough experience or understanding to handle sheep. I have always believe, the title of shepherd must be first earned with your life and example.
Transparency and obedience - Transparency is something HIM is trying hard to build. Its still not easy. There is over 20 plus years of Hope Ideology which i must admit are not all good. The problem we have is applying principle into practical everyday living, which is totally impossible. We build rules and regulation we apply across the board, not factoring other circumstances. In principle, we teach people to love and serve God, which is right. But in Hope's understanding serving means - use your time to meet, follow-up, shepherding, leadership training, run care group, church plant, anything else is not important. The truth is God created us all different, with different gifting, different way of life and interest, we love God by putting God central of what we do. We can serve God too by studying doing well at school and be a testimony, we can play music, open business and support the church by other means. Rigidity had always been our problem. We must start to learn from other churches around the world too. Whatever we will be able to break the mold will largely depend on the leaders leading HIM. I suppose this will be awhile before we see any major shift in paradigm
Conclusion
Because Hope HIM is very much still a very "young" organization, which has just gone through a huge split and shaking. I don't foresee significant change that soon. I think we must all understand, if the top leaders hit the wrong note too soon, who knows more churches will decide to come out and become independent. Its really a catch 22 situation . So all i can say is pray and keep faith.
Set a dateline for yourself, if you still don't see the change you desire or course you can go to other church where you can serve better. Don't stay bitter, just become better.
Amen
Saturday, April 17, 2010
Hope Legacy
Its been a while since i wrote on any updates, been thinking about the Hope Movement lately. I suppose over the course of over 25 years, the movement have scarred quite a number of people along the way, reading from the comments, I get a sense that our movement have swept many things under the carpet in the past.
Over the years, in the aim of pushing the 1 million churches by 2015, we have sacrificed many good people pushing them into mission field to reach the ultimate goal. I have lost many good friends burnt out and tired, trying to reach the goal of church planting.
Over more then a decade, I kept the "body count" of burnt out people, because of Dr Joseph and Ps PN pushing their agenda and dreams. Its truly a very fine line between God's call and personal agenda. Jehovah Witness and Mormons are also "Supposedly" spreading the Gospel, sometimes people maybe sincere but sincerely wrong.
For all I know Ps PN and Dr Joseph started out well but got side tracked along the way - one by the love of power ( Dr Joseph ) and one by the love woman ( Ps PN) - the saddest thing is the people in the Hope Bangkok church still don't know or don't believe Ps PN committed adultery.
Even big pastors around the world have absolutely no clue, i don't know if HIM should take a more bold stand - we preach holiness and integrity. What are leader's responsibility when you see our own brother's and sister's still living in a lie, not knowing the severity of the sin the leaders have committed.
I recently read a blog from a non-hope person, stating the Hope Church split because of financial and political issue. It does tell me many people are still unwilling to speak up, but why ? Should the leaders from the ex-hope take a bolder stand and not be too diplomatic and forgo those niceties ?
There are still good leaders in HIM and those that truly walk by faith, over the course of this split and the trials and tribulations of Hope, strong leaders have emerged. I really hope we can get rid of the stigma of the Hope legacy, there are some good principles we can keep but we should set a new direction, a new name hopefully. Its getting confusing sometimes, when you see Hope Church in certain places but they belong to different factions. Can u imagine 2-3 hope churches in one same place calling by the same name, same mission statement but run by different head ?
I do wish besides discovering our core this new chapter, we can set out doing something different. We should keep the Shepherding system, the follow-up and Cell system, but do away with the elitist attitude of " Leaders knows best attitude", because sometimes leaders don't know best. When Peter made mistake regarding partaking of food with Gentiles, Paul still could rebuke him and show him what he did was wrong.
In all honest truth, there were some bad choices and decisions made, leaders were promoted because of loyalty rather then spirituality. By loyalty i mean blind loyalty, Leader is always right and never wrong. When leader is wrong its because God's will changed.
I know in the blog, there have been some heated arguments about churches and pastors, but who am i to judge. God must have His reasons for everything. As leaders of God's flock, we will ultimately be accountable to God himself, no one can blame others and try to shift the responsibility away.
What i am trying to say is this, we should always cover the very area which destroyed Hope, the legacy left by the leaders of the movement. Have anyone every wondered, if blessing flow from Top down, what about curses ? Meaning every Pastor and leader who have been in Hope will ultimately face these test - Money, Power and Lust, Keep watch and pray so that we will pass this test.
I know there have been comments on these issues in the blog, I do pray its not all true, if it is it will be so saddening. I really Hope these is not the legacy we are going to leave behind as a movement.
I am praying this is a start of a new chapter, hopefully for those friends who have left Hope, may God give you strength.
Over the years, in the aim of pushing the 1 million churches by 2015, we have sacrificed many good people pushing them into mission field to reach the ultimate goal. I have lost many good friends burnt out and tired, trying to reach the goal of church planting.
Over more then a decade, I kept the "body count" of burnt out people, because of Dr Joseph and Ps PN pushing their agenda and dreams. Its truly a very fine line between God's call and personal agenda. Jehovah Witness and Mormons are also "Supposedly" spreading the Gospel, sometimes people maybe sincere but sincerely wrong.
For all I know Ps PN and Dr Joseph started out well but got side tracked along the way - one by the love of power ( Dr Joseph ) and one by the love woman ( Ps PN) - the saddest thing is the people in the Hope Bangkok church still don't know or don't believe Ps PN committed adultery.
Even big pastors around the world have absolutely no clue, i don't know if HIM should take a more bold stand - we preach holiness and integrity. What are leader's responsibility when you see our own brother's and sister's still living in a lie, not knowing the severity of the sin the leaders have committed.
I recently read a blog from a non-hope person, stating the Hope Church split because of financial and political issue. It does tell me many people are still unwilling to speak up, but why ? Should the leaders from the ex-hope take a bolder stand and not be too diplomatic and forgo those niceties ?
There are still good leaders in HIM and those that truly walk by faith, over the course of this split and the trials and tribulations of Hope, strong leaders have emerged. I really hope we can get rid of the stigma of the Hope legacy, there are some good principles we can keep but we should set a new direction, a new name hopefully. Its getting confusing sometimes, when you see Hope Church in certain places but they belong to different factions. Can u imagine 2-3 hope churches in one same place calling by the same name, same mission statement but run by different head ?
I do wish besides discovering our core this new chapter, we can set out doing something different. We should keep the Shepherding system, the follow-up and Cell system, but do away with the elitist attitude of " Leaders knows best attitude", because sometimes leaders don't know best. When Peter made mistake regarding partaking of food with Gentiles, Paul still could rebuke him and show him what he did was wrong.
In all honest truth, there were some bad choices and decisions made, leaders were promoted because of loyalty rather then spirituality. By loyalty i mean blind loyalty, Leader is always right and never wrong. When leader is wrong its because God's will changed.
I know in the blog, there have been some heated arguments about churches and pastors, but who am i to judge. God must have His reasons for everything. As leaders of God's flock, we will ultimately be accountable to God himself, no one can blame others and try to shift the responsibility away.
What i am trying to say is this, we should always cover the very area which destroyed Hope, the legacy left by the leaders of the movement. Have anyone every wondered, if blessing flow from Top down, what about curses ? Meaning every Pastor and leader who have been in Hope will ultimately face these test - Money, Power and Lust, Keep watch and pray so that we will pass this test.
I know there have been comments on these issues in the blog, I do pray its not all true, if it is it will be so saddening. I really Hope these is not the legacy we are going to leave behind as a movement.
I am praying this is a start of a new chapter, hopefully for those friends who have left Hope, may God give you strength.
Tuesday, January 26, 2010
News in Bangkok
Here are some news from Hope Bangkok,
Apparently now Hope has send people to Hong Kong to start Hope Church. Well, it would be interesting to see 2 different Hope in Hong Kong.
Hope Hong Kong currently I believe decided to go independent, so it would be an interesting development happening in Hong Kong. I wonder if Hope Hong Kong remembered to register.
Opening Hope of Hong Kong
News about PN ....
Pastor PN General Secretary of CFAM
Apparently now Hope has send people to Hong Kong to start Hope Church. Well, it would be interesting to see 2 different Hope in Hong Kong.
Hope Hong Kong currently I believe decided to go independent, so it would be an interesting development happening in Hong Kong. I wonder if Hope Hong Kong remembered to register.
Opening Hope of Hong Kong
On Nov 27th Pastor EE Nipa Saeboon and team traveled to Hong Kong with the purpose of pioneering the
News about PN ....
Pastor PN General Secretary of CFAM
Towards the end of Oct. 2009, Pastor Phisanunart Srithawong [PN] of Hope of Bangkok Church was chosen for the position of General Secretary of “Christ For Asia Movement” [CFAM]. CFAM an organization which many of the large churches in Asia have come together in, has a base in Manila Philippians.
Don’t forget to pray for Pastor PN’s good friend; he will be running for president in the upcoming May 2010 elections. Pastor Eddie is Pastor of the “Jesus is Lord Church” in Manila, Philippians. In March of 2009 Dr Cindy Jacobs Had a word of prophecy for Pastor Eddie and encouraged him. Dr. Cindy is supportive and teaches the concept of the seven Mt. to encourage believers to be a blessing to their society, politics being one of the seven.
Monday, January 25, 2010
Principle of Financial Management II
Salary and Allowance
The great ambiguity of these 2 terms are often intertwined together, that sometimes we mix the two term up. In my opinion, an allowance is provided on top of any assistance the church gives to its staff.
For example, a full-time staff could choose Cash Salary or simply Church support as a basic remuneration. As both would undoubtedly serve the same function.
Salary is given so that people can use the money to pay for Food, lodging, transport and all daily necessities, if the church provide already provide lodging, transport and reimbursement of food then its considered salary. And amount given beyond these would be termed an allowance.
In my opinion, it is always good to separate Church and personal items as these would create better accountability. As pastor or full-time staff, we should always consider when doing reimbursement if the items are for Church of personal.
Some of the most common gray area during Ps PN days were reimbursement for entertainment expenses, petrol. For smaller churches where church would support the rental of church office and staff housing, it is always important to try and keep the items black and white.
When we buy items and reimbursed it under church we need to consider if the item used is mainly for the church for their own family and persnal use. If church buys a car or van, is the vehicle used more for personal and family purpose or used mainly for church purpose.
My recommendation is always to keep church and personal vehicle separate so that people cannot say we are abusing our authority. Unless the Vehicle is given to the staff and is not part of church repsonsiblity then Staff becomes responsible for its maintenance and insurance.
The issue in Hope is that since everyone is also serving almost at the same capacity as the pastor meaning going to meet people for shepherding, meetings, spending money or their own sheep. If the full-time staff starts to claim reimbursement then everyone in Church would therefore by precedent be able to claim, unless of course, only full-time staff do the shepherding and follow-up.
Thus i think one of the biggest change we must consider is to keep money as black and white as possible so that no one can say we are abusing our authority.
The great ambiguity of these 2 terms are often intertwined together, that sometimes we mix the two term up. In my opinion, an allowance is provided on top of any assistance the church gives to its staff.
For example, a full-time staff could choose Cash Salary or simply Church support as a basic remuneration. As both would undoubtedly serve the same function.
Salary is given so that people can use the money to pay for Food, lodging, transport and all daily necessities, if the church provide already provide lodging, transport and reimbursement of food then its considered salary. And amount given beyond these would be termed an allowance.
In my opinion, it is always good to separate Church and personal items as these would create better accountability. As pastor or full-time staff, we should always consider when doing reimbursement if the items are for Church of personal.
Some of the most common gray area during Ps PN days were reimbursement for entertainment expenses, petrol. For smaller churches where church would support the rental of church office and staff housing, it is always important to try and keep the items black and white.
When we buy items and reimbursed it under church we need to consider if the item used is mainly for the church for their own family and persnal use. If church buys a car or van, is the vehicle used more for personal and family purpose or used mainly for church purpose.
My recommendation is always to keep church and personal vehicle separate so that people cannot say we are abusing our authority. Unless the Vehicle is given to the staff and is not part of church repsonsiblity then Staff becomes responsible for its maintenance and insurance.
The issue in Hope is that since everyone is also serving almost at the same capacity as the pastor meaning going to meet people for shepherding, meetings, spending money or their own sheep. If the full-time staff starts to claim reimbursement then everyone in Church would therefore by precedent be able to claim, unless of course, only full-time staff do the shepherding and follow-up.
Thus i think one of the biggest change we must consider is to keep money as black and white as possible so that no one can say we are abusing our authority.
Monday, December 7, 2009
Hope Bangkok Church the reason for the blog.
It is interesting to note many of the comments being posted regarding the Hope perth issue. Just to make it clear, i am not anti-HIM nor Church which do the right thing.
The biggest issue why this blog exist is because Ps PN and Dr Joseph Kriengsak is still trying to manipulate churches to try and restall their power in the previous Hope Movement. They have also recently align themselves with some other church planting movement. I saw a number of links from their website - these are the Friends of Hope
1. Apostolic Fellowship international
2. City Harvest Church
3. K.A.N.A.P
4. Project Amazon
5. Hosanna
6. Jesus is Lord Fellowship
7 Kings Christian Centre
8. Living Faith Fellowship
I believe not many people or the pastor know actually what is going on in the Hope Movement
I think HIM should actually write a formal letter to explain the situation. If you have friends in the these churches, you should let them know.
I think PN is trying to get more churches to be affiliated to Hope to help make them look good.
Just one fact. PN committed adultery and refused to step from leadership to be restored properly and instead split the church, would be sufficient for the pastors I believe.
As for the Hope Perth issue, I can only cast an open verdict there are alot of points and comments about the pastor. It will really be up to HIM to decide what is the best foot forward.
All I can say is as long as the Pastor walk with God the Church will grow, Pastor will make mistake and to grow one have to learn from ones own mistake, so that the church will grow under him or her.
Now regarding the Perth issue,
For those who left Hope Perth because of the Pastor, if he did do anything wrong do not worry, God ultimately will decide, trust me nothing is more stressful than a stagnating church, because after all that is why we have a pastor, to guide and grow God's church. You wouldn't belive the stress of seeing a church with the same number for 6-7 years.
For those who choose to stay in Hope perth and believe that the pastor is the best thing that happen to Perth, all i can say is then let the growth of the church be a statement of your confidence.
We can all argue till we are blue in the face, but ultimately just like Hope Bangkok, when Ps PN sin against God by committing adultery, stealing God's money to help finance Dr Joseph Kreingsak and leading his sheep astray by false teaching. Then i assure you, God's judgement hand will be upon the leader just like he split Hope Movement.
All I can say only TIME will TELL.
The biggest issue why this blog exist is because Ps PN and Dr Joseph Kriengsak is still trying to manipulate churches to try and restall their power in the previous Hope Movement. They have also recently align themselves with some other church planting movement. I saw a number of links from their website - these are the Friends of Hope
1. Apostolic Fellowship international
2. City Harvest Church
3. K.A.N.A.P
4. Project Amazon
5. Hosanna
6. Jesus is Lord Fellowship
7 Kings Christian Centre
8. Living Faith Fellowship
I believe not many people or the pastor know actually what is going on in the Hope Movement
I think HIM should actually write a formal letter to explain the situation. If you have friends in the these churches, you should let them know.
I think PN is trying to get more churches to be affiliated to Hope to help make them look good.
Just one fact. PN committed adultery and refused to step from leadership to be restored properly and instead split the church, would be sufficient for the pastors I believe.
As for the Hope Perth issue, I can only cast an open verdict there are alot of points and comments about the pastor. It will really be up to HIM to decide what is the best foot forward.
All I can say is as long as the Pastor walk with God the Church will grow, Pastor will make mistake and to grow one have to learn from ones own mistake, so that the church will grow under him or her.
Now regarding the Perth issue,
For those who left Hope Perth because of the Pastor, if he did do anything wrong do not worry, God ultimately will decide, trust me nothing is more stressful than a stagnating church, because after all that is why we have a pastor, to guide and grow God's church. You wouldn't belive the stress of seeing a church with the same number for 6-7 years.
For those who choose to stay in Hope perth and believe that the pastor is the best thing that happen to Perth, all i can say is then let the growth of the church be a statement of your confidence.
We can all argue till we are blue in the face, but ultimately just like Hope Bangkok, when Ps PN sin against God by committing adultery, stealing God's money to help finance Dr Joseph Kreingsak and leading his sheep astray by false teaching. Then i assure you, God's judgement hand will be upon the leader just like he split Hope Movement.
All I can say only TIME will TELL.
Tuesday, November 10, 2009
We are all responsible
From all the comments I have read recently, there seems to be some slight elements of the Old Hope BKK approach and ideals. Here is some thoughts which may help all of us.
1. Leaders are also human and do face temptation, giving leaders too much power without proper accountability is not helping the leader. Dr J and PN are case in point. If in doubt over finance ask for clarification. Not just the leaders words, but a proper disclosure. Most churches will have financial statement audited by proper accounting firm.
2. Listen to the complaints and check out the stories. We often say there is no smoke without a fire. If you see people complaining the same thing and it is not an isolated case, but one which constantly resurface. Maybe there is some truth to what people are saying and make your own investigation. Don't just listen to one side just because they are leaders. That was the problem the catholic church had when boys complained of sexaul abuse by the priest but people choose to ignore until the issue was brought to light.
3. If in doubt over issues or certain behaviour, speak to higher leader, every pastor in HIM have someone overseeing them. Speak to the higher authority clarify the blibical way. If something seems not right, dont sweep it under the carpet. There are always some truth to peoples complaint. The term rebellious and bad spirit is used to often to cover the leaders fault and issues. Use our own judgment. God says he wants to transform our mind not remove it. Remember if more than 3 groups of people are highlighting the same issue and over a period.. it cannot be because of bad spirit... there must be something.. investigate... God holds all of us accountable ..
Remember total Obedience and Blind Loyalty to the leader regardless of their life is not a sign of a good christian. We can be sincere but sincerely wrong. You will ultimately be judged by what you choose to do.
I think crucially, we have to answer to God for our action or inaction.
Here are some signs that something is not right in the church, it is not exhaustive but it will at least cause an alarm in your mind to probe further.
1. When the church is bering evasive about their finances and do not have good transparency. Case in point BBK church. Good churches have transparent accounts where people can see anytime and have Salary package stated clearly... some churches actually inform their members the package of their pastor. - Salary and Benefits provided.. do you know yours??
2. When people start living church not because they are backsliding but because of leadership issues. If just one group or a couple of people leave it is understandable, but when you see, different groups of people from the youth to the family starting to leave the church over a period of time. Then some alarm bells shoudl start ringing . Find out the issues. and see if there is a basis for their complain.
3. The church is having turnover. Meaning there is alot of people come but also alot of people leaving, so the church never grow. numercially and if it is over a period of time .. from 1 yr to maybe 3 years.. then.. something is wrong somewhere. We need to ask why .
Early diagnosis... will hopefully prevent a similiar split again in Hope Movement. Remember members, our pastors life is in our hands.. we are all responsible to ensure the pastor's and the church well being.
1. Leaders are also human and do face temptation, giving leaders too much power without proper accountability is not helping the leader. Dr J and PN are case in point. If in doubt over finance ask for clarification. Not just the leaders words, but a proper disclosure. Most churches will have financial statement audited by proper accounting firm.
2. Listen to the complaints and check out the stories. We often say there is no smoke without a fire. If you see people complaining the same thing and it is not an isolated case, but one which constantly resurface. Maybe there is some truth to what people are saying and make your own investigation. Don't just listen to one side just because they are leaders. That was the problem the catholic church had when boys complained of sexaul abuse by the priest but people choose to ignore until the issue was brought to light.
3. If in doubt over issues or certain behaviour, speak to higher leader, every pastor in HIM have someone overseeing them. Speak to the higher authority clarify the blibical way. If something seems not right, dont sweep it under the carpet. There are always some truth to peoples complaint. The term rebellious and bad spirit is used to often to cover the leaders fault and issues. Use our own judgment. God says he wants to transform our mind not remove it. Remember if more than 3 groups of people are highlighting the same issue and over a period.. it cannot be because of bad spirit... there must be something.. investigate... God holds all of us accountable ..
Remember total Obedience and Blind Loyalty to the leader regardless of their life is not a sign of a good christian. We can be sincere but sincerely wrong. You will ultimately be judged by what you choose to do.
I think crucially, we have to answer to God for our action or inaction.
Here are some signs that something is not right in the church, it is not exhaustive but it will at least cause an alarm in your mind to probe further.
1. When the church is bering evasive about their finances and do not have good transparency. Case in point BBK church. Good churches have transparent accounts where people can see anytime and have Salary package stated clearly... some churches actually inform their members the package of their pastor. - Salary and Benefits provided.. do you know yours??
2. When people start living church not because they are backsliding but because of leadership issues. If just one group or a couple of people leave it is understandable, but when you see, different groups of people from the youth to the family starting to leave the church over a period of time. Then some alarm bells shoudl start ringing . Find out the issues. and see if there is a basis for their complain.
3. The church is having turnover. Meaning there is alot of people come but also alot of people leaving, so the church never grow. numercially and if it is over a period of time .. from 1 yr to maybe 3 years.. then.. something is wrong somewhere. We need to ask why .
Early diagnosis... will hopefully prevent a similiar split again in Hope Movement. Remember members, our pastors life is in our hands.. we are all responsible to ensure the pastor's and the church well being.
Saturday, November 7, 2009
Hope related videos
Here is some youtube of PN. He is preaching in Nigeria and Ps Nimit from the other Camp...
Friday, November 6, 2009
The role of a pastor
I have been reading the comments from my previous article about HIM pastor's going to Thailand and did not expect a topic generating from that article.
From the comments, it does seems that people are not concerned with the going on in the particular HIM church. I must say, I did hear abit of news too, I do know from previous discussion on the biblediscuss.com which is used mainly by the Thai people.
There was a heated debate regarding Ps PK letter to PN, and from the conversation I did thought he was on PN side. The Ps in question is a Hope Bangkok trained pastor through and through, the style and approach nevertheless would not differ much. As the concepts are picked from Hope Bangkok.
In truth, not every Pastor are the same, not every HIM pastor thinks the same and will do the same thing. God made us all different. But I do think that one thing as Pastor we must always do is never first to blame the people for bad spirit but always check on ourselves when things go pear shaped.
The problem with churches is that when people are not agreeable on certain issues, its not always bad spirit. Yes, there may be your occasion of few negative people.. BUT.. what if not just one or two are feeling the same. Then it cannot be the people, it should be the leader who needs a check, we can't say the whole world is wrong and I am right.
The key is this, whatever church you are in.. when you start seeing people from students, profeesionals and even families that is voicing some concern about your stlye, It is time we need to start a careful on ourselves.
To hid under the sand and pretend that the rest of the world is full of bad spirit people. Then we maybe living in denial. Therefore as a pastor, we hold more accountable in our actions because God mentions int he bible that HE who teaches are judge more severely.
If this has been a problem in the church, i really hope the issues can be resolved and sorted out. Regardless, as Pastor we should set a better example not otherwise.
Hopefully things will get better for those in the affected area.
From the comments, it does seems that people are not concerned with the going on in the particular HIM church. I must say, I did hear abit of news too, I do know from previous discussion on the biblediscuss.com which is used mainly by the Thai people.
There was a heated debate regarding Ps PK letter to PN, and from the conversation I did thought he was on PN side. The Ps in question is a Hope Bangkok trained pastor through and through, the style and approach nevertheless would not differ much. As the concepts are picked from Hope Bangkok.
In truth, not every Pastor are the same, not every HIM pastor thinks the same and will do the same thing. God made us all different. But I do think that one thing as Pastor we must always do is never first to blame the people for bad spirit but always check on ourselves when things go pear shaped.
The problem with churches is that when people are not agreeable on certain issues, its not always bad spirit. Yes, there may be your occasion of few negative people.. BUT.. what if not just one or two are feeling the same. Then it cannot be the people, it should be the leader who needs a check, we can't say the whole world is wrong and I am right.
The key is this, whatever church you are in.. when you start seeing people from students, profeesionals and even families that is voicing some concern about your stlye, It is time we need to start a careful on ourselves.
To hid under the sand and pretend that the rest of the world is full of bad spirit people. Then we maybe living in denial. Therefore as a pastor, we hold more accountable in our actions because God mentions int he bible that HE who teaches are judge more severely.
If this has been a problem in the church, i really hope the issues can be resolved and sorted out. Regardless, as Pastor we should set a better example not otherwise.
Hopefully things will get better for those in the affected area.
Thursday, October 29, 2009
A change is happening in Bangkok
Yes, I have been told that it seems one thing good that came out of this split with Hope Bangkok and the big issue in Bangkok is that, I think God is trying to relight the fire in Bangkok, where once there was only Hope Church dominating the Thailand scene, this split have helped created many neutral churches that i believe will only be Good for Thailand.
No matter how PN and Dr.J try to get back those churches that split from the movement, i believe this move is caused by the hand of God. Hope as a movement was getting too big and too many bureaucracies and efficient management of both financial and human resources. So instead of one Big church under Dr. Kriengsak and Ps PN from Hope Bangkok, God had allowed this split so that more leaders can rise up from within Bangkok.
As of today, there are many new churches breaking from Hope Movement under both Hope Church in Bangkok.
A close in bangkok told me that we have HIM pastors now going to the bible conference happening currently in Bangkok. And a number of new churches have decided to join under HIM wings, but will remain autonomous. I believe the new one is called Church of Convenant. I just read it on their website. http://www.churchofcovenant.com/
Its mostly in thai but they have a link to HIM website...
Well bible says, what devil meant to destroy, God will use it for his work.
I believe God will open up Bangkok as more churches sprout up and pastors start to take the lead. And hopefully those training they receive will help them build stronger churches in Bangkok
Hope Hong Kong I think has decided to be independent. Still I believe we are all one big family. May God also help them build something in Hong Kong. I did not see their name in the HIM blog and from my source, they might decided to be independent.
** I dont know but it seems that PN is still going to many countries to preach, i think recently to Africa. Well. that i wont comment.
No matter how PN and Dr.J try to get back those churches that split from the movement, i believe this move is caused by the hand of God. Hope as a movement was getting too big and too many bureaucracies and efficient management of both financial and human resources. So instead of one Big church under Dr. Kriengsak and Ps PN from Hope Bangkok, God had allowed this split so that more leaders can rise up from within Bangkok.
As of today, there are many new churches breaking from Hope Movement under both Hope Church in Bangkok.
A close in bangkok told me that we have HIM pastors now going to the bible conference happening currently in Bangkok. And a number of new churches have decided to join under HIM wings, but will remain autonomous. I believe the new one is called Church of Convenant. I just read it on their website. http://www.churchofcovenant.com/
Its mostly in thai but they have a link to HIM website...
Well bible says, what devil meant to destroy, God will use it for his work.
I believe God will open up Bangkok as more churches sprout up and pastors start to take the lead. And hopefully those training they receive will help them build stronger churches in Bangkok
Hope Hong Kong I think has decided to be independent. Still I believe we are all one big family. May God also help them build something in Hong Kong. I did not see their name in the HIM blog and from my source, they might decided to be independent.
** I dont know but it seems that PN is still going to many countries to preach, i think recently to Africa. Well. that i wont comment.
Monday, October 26, 2009
An article - Church Horror Stories
Below is a recent article posted by one commentator
A church horror story
Q. I've been curious about what your take on my current situation would be. My family has been attending a new church for about ten months. We don't agree with some of the pastor's teachings (I've been down the "works" path and refuse to go back) but we are there mainly to give our children a church family as they have many friends in our homeschooling community who go to that church. I feel I get my spiritual nourishment from many different places and I didn't have a problem not getting "fed" at "church" so to speak.
Well, a few months ago during a camping trip it came out that I didn't agree with everything the pastor said. I tried to downplay it because this is a small, close knit church. I knew from my past church experiences that there was no sense in expressing my differences to church leadership because they would not change. They worship their pastor and believe what he says is not to be questioned.
After Bible study Wednesday night the pastor asked me to stay behind and everyone left. There was just the pastor, another man and me (my husband was not there that night). The pastor told me that I needed to decide if he was going to be my spiritual teacher. He used Hebrews 13:17 to tell me that I needed to obey him -- that even if I disagreed with him I needed to trust him. And if I did disagree, I needed to be quiet about it.
A couple of weeks earlier he had given a sermon (directed at me) about how there was someone in the group who didn't agree with what was being taught and who was causing problems. He said that "this person" needs to repent.
Responding to his interrogation on Wedensday night, I told the pastor I really didn't look at him as my spiritual mentor, although I loved and respected him and his walk with the Lord. I didn't say anything negative. I told him I didn't think it was a problem for people to discuss what they believe or discuss other scriptural viewpoints -- because "iron sharpens iron." But he made it very clear that Hebrews 13:17 commands me to come "under him" and to be quiet. He said that he does not want division in his church. He also advised me to stop listening to sermons from other pastors and teachers so that I wouldn't get confused. I told him I didn't feel confused at all. God is HUGE to me and doesn't fit into any box. I love what God is doing in everyone's life and I love learning and growing. I don't want to be limited to one man's teaching.
I wasn't hurt by what he said, though it was painful to sit there -- he was a coward in my book to not talk to my husband and me together. I was, however, hurt by how the people in the church knew what was going on, and I didn't. When my kids asked where I was, the church leaders' kids told my kids I was getting kicked out of the church. These were supposed to be my friends.
This whole episode is actually quite comical except for the fact that I have five young kids who are hurting on the inside because they will not be able to hang out with their friends anymore. What a mess for a testimony of Christian love. I later found out that one family had told their kids not to talk to mine -- but the kids did anyway when the parents weren't around.
So, with all that said, what do you think about my "submitting" to the pastor? By the way, obviously, I'm not going back. I don't think it's healthy for my kids to be under that kind of leadership. Yet part of me wants to go back and apologize to the people if they thought I was trying to cause a problem. That was truly not my intent.
Thanks for your input, Greg. I always enjoy your answers and respect your interpretation.
A. I guess I should not be shocked when I hear reports such as yours. After all, I know it's happening, so how can I be surprised? You ask for my input. Here goes. Your relationship with God is being damaged. God is being misrepresented to you. From what you have said about this situation, I can see nothing for which you should apologize.
If more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.
Leave. Don't go back. Nothing at all, in terms of a relationship with a brick and mortar church (church attendance, activities, outings, camping trips, church "friendships" -- etc.) is better than what you describe. Stay at home if need be -- if more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.
I know about this kind of authoritarianism and the lasting impact it usually has on our relationship with God. I experienced a similar kind of manipulation and brow-beating, guilt trips, and transfers of blame -- for many years. I and many others who existed in that particular religious swamp were told, when we didn't agree with religious authorities, that we were in "bad attitudes" -- and when we expressed disagreement we were told that we weren't being "loyal" (to a human being!). When and if we failed to conform to legalistic practice one of the ultimate clubs was to be told that our "conversion" was questionable.
And of course, when all else failed, there was blazing hot hell fire that awaited us, because we couldn't be obedient to God (that is, God as perverted and corrupted by religion). I lived through such religious oppression, thinking that I was the problem. I experienced such mind games at the hands of authorities who, to the best of my knowledge, were sincere. They were of course way off base -- way wrong -- but sincere. Deceived and messed up, and doing their best to mess up everyone to whom they "ministered" and "served." Your pastor may also be completely sincere -- but he is sincerely wrong.
Sad to say, I became a religious authority in the same religious context, and inflicted the same rules, regimens and regulations -- the same atmosphere of fear and shame, of intimidation and bullying. Thinking it was what God wanted, I dished up the same kind of religious propaganda and lies on others. Many of my friends who knew me back then, and who continue to exist within a similar religious world view, believe that I am overstating the reality of what I and many others experienced back then. I believe that they, for a variety of reasons, are unable to deal with the truth of what happened to them and what they themselves participated in -- and thus they live in some degree of denial. I thank God for his gracious deliverance from religion -- for myself, for many people I know, and for many people I serve. I thank God that it seems that you too understand something seems to be horribly wrong in this church you have been attending.
Once again, the sincerity of your pastor and your friends is not the issue. Most of them, perhaps all of them, are doing what they believe to be "right." But by God's grace you seem to know it's not right at all. You mention that some of your friends "worship" the pastor -- when that dynamic is present it can give that human leader carte blanche, and eventually a person given that kind of reverence, whether politically, religiously, on the job or in the family, will become somewhat convinced that they are above and beyond the run of the mill people they ostensibly "serve." Worship of a pastor, however worship may be defined, is a huge danger sign.
Don't put up with this kind of treatment. Many who realize something is very wrong continue to allow such un-Christ-like behavior, in the context of a church, somewhat like a battered spouse will make excuses for his/her spouse who is physically and emotionally abusing them. The abused person will think they can change the abusive party. The abused person will talk about the "good times" when the abuse is not happening. The abused person will make excuses for the perpetrator, justifying him or her.
Women in particular find themselves in a difficult place when adult male spiritual leaders play the submission card. It's often the trump card, used to bring the "rebellious" woman back into line. And, ganging up on a woman when her husband is not present?!?! Religion is all about control.
My question is simple: I challenge religious legalism to please demonstrate and explain how Jesus is all about control. He is the polar opposite! This doesn't mean Jesus is a wimp -- it does mean Jesus gives us choices. He does not chain us to the church pews to make sure we attend every week! May God give you the wisdom and courage to take the steps you need. May his grace and peace be with you. My prayers are with you.
A church horror story
Q. I've been curious about what your take on my current situation would be. My family has been attending a new church for about ten months. We don't agree with some of the pastor's teachings (I've been down the "works" path and refuse to go back) but we are there mainly to give our children a church family as they have many friends in our homeschooling community who go to that church. I feel I get my spiritual nourishment from many different places and I didn't have a problem not getting "fed" at "church" so to speak.
Well, a few months ago during a camping trip it came out that I didn't agree with everything the pastor said. I tried to downplay it because this is a small, close knit church. I knew from my past church experiences that there was no sense in expressing my differences to church leadership because they would not change. They worship their pastor and believe what he says is not to be questioned.
After Bible study Wednesday night the pastor asked me to stay behind and everyone left. There was just the pastor, another man and me (my husband was not there that night). The pastor told me that I needed to decide if he was going to be my spiritual teacher. He used Hebrews 13:17 to tell me that I needed to obey him -- that even if I disagreed with him I needed to trust him. And if I did disagree, I needed to be quiet about it.
A couple of weeks earlier he had given a sermon (directed at me) about how there was someone in the group who didn't agree with what was being taught and who was causing problems. He said that "this person" needs to repent.
Responding to his interrogation on Wedensday night, I told the pastor I really didn't look at him as my spiritual mentor, although I loved and respected him and his walk with the Lord. I didn't say anything negative. I told him I didn't think it was a problem for people to discuss what they believe or discuss other scriptural viewpoints -- because "iron sharpens iron." But he made it very clear that Hebrews 13:17 commands me to come "under him" and to be quiet. He said that he does not want division in his church. He also advised me to stop listening to sermons from other pastors and teachers so that I wouldn't get confused. I told him I didn't feel confused at all. God is HUGE to me and doesn't fit into any box. I love what God is doing in everyone's life and I love learning and growing. I don't want to be limited to one man's teaching.
I wasn't hurt by what he said, though it was painful to sit there -- he was a coward in my book to not talk to my husband and me together. I was, however, hurt by how the people in the church knew what was going on, and I didn't. When my kids asked where I was, the church leaders' kids told my kids I was getting kicked out of the church. These were supposed to be my friends.
This whole episode is actually quite comical except for the fact that I have five young kids who are hurting on the inside because they will not be able to hang out with their friends anymore. What a mess for a testimony of Christian love. I later found out that one family had told their kids not to talk to mine -- but the kids did anyway when the parents weren't around.
So, with all that said, what do you think about my "submitting" to the pastor? By the way, obviously, I'm not going back. I don't think it's healthy for my kids to be under that kind of leadership. Yet part of me wants to go back and apologize to the people if they thought I was trying to cause a problem. That was truly not my intent.
Thanks for your input, Greg. I always enjoy your answers and respect your interpretation.
A. I guess I should not be shocked when I hear reports such as yours. After all, I know it's happening, so how can I be surprised? You ask for my input. Here goes. Your relationship with God is being damaged. God is being misrepresented to you. From what you have said about this situation, I can see nothing for which you should apologize.
If more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.
Leave. Don't go back. Nothing at all, in terms of a relationship with a brick and mortar church (church attendance, activities, outings, camping trips, church "friendships" -- etc.) is better than what you describe. Stay at home if need be -- if more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.
I know about this kind of authoritarianism and the lasting impact it usually has on our relationship with God. I experienced a similar kind of manipulation and brow-beating, guilt trips, and transfers of blame -- for many years. I and many others who existed in that particular religious swamp were told, when we didn't agree with religious authorities, that we were in "bad attitudes" -- and when we expressed disagreement we were told that we weren't being "loyal" (to a human being!). When and if we failed to conform to legalistic practice one of the ultimate clubs was to be told that our "conversion" was questionable.
And of course, when all else failed, there was blazing hot hell fire that awaited us, because we couldn't be obedient to God (that is, God as perverted and corrupted by religion). I lived through such religious oppression, thinking that I was the problem. I experienced such mind games at the hands of authorities who, to the best of my knowledge, were sincere. They were of course way off base -- way wrong -- but sincere. Deceived and messed up, and doing their best to mess up everyone to whom they "ministered" and "served." Your pastor may also be completely sincere -- but he is sincerely wrong.
Sad to say, I became a religious authority in the same religious context, and inflicted the same rules, regimens and regulations -- the same atmosphere of fear and shame, of intimidation and bullying. Thinking it was what God wanted, I dished up the same kind of religious propaganda and lies on others. Many of my friends who knew me back then, and who continue to exist within a similar religious world view, believe that I am overstating the reality of what I and many others experienced back then. I believe that they, for a variety of reasons, are unable to deal with the truth of what happened to them and what they themselves participated in -- and thus they live in some degree of denial. I thank God for his gracious deliverance from religion -- for myself, for many people I know, and for many people I serve. I thank God that it seems that you too understand something seems to be horribly wrong in this church you have been attending.
Once again, the sincerity of your pastor and your friends is not the issue. Most of them, perhaps all of them, are doing what they believe to be "right." But by God's grace you seem to know it's not right at all. You mention that some of your friends "worship" the pastor -- when that dynamic is present it can give that human leader carte blanche, and eventually a person given that kind of reverence, whether politically, religiously, on the job or in the family, will become somewhat convinced that they are above and beyond the run of the mill people they ostensibly "serve." Worship of a pastor, however worship may be defined, is a huge danger sign.
Don't put up with this kind of treatment. Many who realize something is very wrong continue to allow such un-Christ-like behavior, in the context of a church, somewhat like a battered spouse will make excuses for his/her spouse who is physically and emotionally abusing them. The abused person will think they can change the abusive party. The abused person will talk about the "good times" when the abuse is not happening. The abused person will make excuses for the perpetrator, justifying him or her.
Women in particular find themselves in a difficult place when adult male spiritual leaders play the submission card. It's often the trump card, used to bring the "rebellious" woman back into line. And, ganging up on a woman when her husband is not present?!?! Religion is all about control.
My question is simple: I challenge religious legalism to please demonstrate and explain how Jesus is all about control. He is the polar opposite! This doesn't mean Jesus is a wimp -- it does mean Jesus gives us choices. He does not chain us to the church pews to make sure we attend every week! May God give you the wisdom and courage to take the steps you need. May his grace and peace be with you. My prayers are with you.
Monday, October 12, 2009
New HIM website and Hope Bangkok
Yes, it is up and running.. the HIM website. I have placed a link. If you are interested its there.
Just a quick update..Thailand Situation
The thailand situation is still very much... all over. There is still alot of movement and I believe some Thai churches would want to join HIM movement.
PN church is apparently doing pretty well, He was recently invited to i think Africa to speak... mmmmm.. i wonder if the international organisation know what is happening. Unfortunately from what i undertand people in PN church refuse to believe that PN committed adultery even though there is evidence of his infidelity.
Its sad that Hope Bangkok Church people would be so blinded by loyalty that they would not investigate the claim futher.
I am not too sure how HIM will deal with PN and the Hope link. The problem is that we stil use Hope and all those who broke from Hope still retain the name. I can only say it will surely cause more confusion.
I had hope in the future we will have a new name.. maybe call New Hope... to break from the past. I know PN is planning to send people overseas to plant church and you can imagine the confusion it will create.
But.. its my opinion. A name is still a name... as long the truth is out in the open.
I really dont know how to convince the thai bro and sister who just follow blindly.. i suppose only God knows.
Just a quick update..Thailand Situation
The thailand situation is still very much... all over. There is still alot of movement and I believe some Thai churches would want to join HIM movement.
PN church is apparently doing pretty well, He was recently invited to i think Africa to speak... mmmmm.. i wonder if the international organisation know what is happening. Unfortunately from what i undertand people in PN church refuse to believe that PN committed adultery even though there is evidence of his infidelity.
Its sad that Hope Bangkok Church people would be so blinded by loyalty that they would not investigate the claim futher.
I am not too sure how HIM will deal with PN and the Hope link. The problem is that we stil use Hope and all those who broke from Hope still retain the name. I can only say it will surely cause more confusion.
I had hope in the future we will have a new name.. maybe call New Hope... to break from the past. I know PN is planning to send people overseas to plant church and you can imagine the confusion it will create.
But.. its my opinion. A name is still a name... as long the truth is out in the open.
I really dont know how to convince the thai bro and sister who just follow blindly.. i suppose only God knows.
Monday, October 5, 2009
The Great debate in BGR
After reading some of the comments, I do see that many people have experienced the downside of the Relationship system currently employed. I do agree with some of the views that black and white principles need to be taught eg.
1. Pre-Martial Sex
2. Appropriate relationship behaviour
As for the system where if you are interested in a party you tell your shepherd and your shepherd decides for you and also talks to the other party shepherd. I can say with my time at home this method only happens in 1 out of 100. I hardly see this happening, most of the time by the time people tell their shepherd they would have asked the other party.
Unfortunately, because God created us so unique, we can never effectively decide which party is more suited to one another. Thus trying to arrange partnership never really works. I prefer the thrill of the chase, but kept within biblical boundaries. I am sure, girls like to be wooed too.
Rather then make people feel guilty to fall in love, teach guys and girls to enjoy wholesome relationship. Someone once ask me when is the right time to start a relationship, in Hope when you are studying it is a no-no. In fact many times you will face punishment and be forced to step-down from leadership.
Today i hope to bust some myth. So here goes.
I believe many readers will agree that God is perfect and is all-knowing. Therefore if we believe that, then we must believe that when God allow something to happen, he must believe that it is an appropriate timing.
Every human have a hormones clock, where we start to become aware of the opposite "creation", this is often coupled by some physical changes like voice cracking and etc. At school, we have doctors and nurses that do occasional body check. I went through it, they then rate your growth - from facial hair, voice, body structure, etc. And you will notice each people grow differently
Ok here is the thing, if God is never wrong and God in his infinite wisdom decides that Mr A will develop feelings for the opposite ""creation" at 14yrs of age. Then God must have his reasons. The things is each person develops at varying degree at different ages. So when we begin to develop and notice those changes, then we know that that is is time for the next stage in our life. To say that having feelings is wrong then we are doing God a dis-service.
Remember this though - The schooling system was developed by Man not by God, God did not plan the High school, College and University, man did that. To say that a university is wrong to fall in love, is i believe totally inappropriate, did God say that ?
The key is teaching Guys and Gals to "manage" the feelings and work within biblical boundaries. Teach them it is not wrong to have feelings, but teach them how to mange it so that it will not affect their work. Encourage positive interaction, not try and subjugate the people.
The worst thing a church can do is to sweep it all under the carpet and expect every student to be a monk or nun. Seriously this never works. Emotions are very powerful tools and if not handled properly can burn a person badly.
God allow us to mature around 13-18 yrs depending of course on individual, some people never grow-up and may not mature until 30 but... when we first develop such strong emotions, it would have been more constructive to have a peer to guide us how to use the emotions and work within the biblical guidelines.
An example would be when a Father buys his Son a Super-charged Evolution iX, If the Dad do not explain how to drive it and also explain the consequence and set some speed boundaries, of course being a hot-headed teenager there is no guarantee he will not try and drive it at 200KM/hr.
So if you ask me what age ? There is no age, the key is to watch and when you realise someone is coming of age. Guide them along and teach them to handle it better.
Remember, God set everything in His time..
1. Pre-Martial Sex
2. Appropriate relationship behaviour
As for the system where if you are interested in a party you tell your shepherd and your shepherd decides for you and also talks to the other party shepherd. I can say with my time at home this method only happens in 1 out of 100. I hardly see this happening, most of the time by the time people tell their shepherd they would have asked the other party.
Unfortunately, because God created us so unique, we can never effectively decide which party is more suited to one another. Thus trying to arrange partnership never really works. I prefer the thrill of the chase, but kept within biblical boundaries. I am sure, girls like to be wooed too.
Rather then make people feel guilty to fall in love, teach guys and girls to enjoy wholesome relationship. Someone once ask me when is the right time to start a relationship, in Hope when you are studying it is a no-no. In fact many times you will face punishment and be forced to step-down from leadership.
Today i hope to bust some myth. So here goes.
I believe many readers will agree that God is perfect and is all-knowing. Therefore if we believe that, then we must believe that when God allow something to happen, he must believe that it is an appropriate timing.
Every human have a hormones clock, where we start to become aware of the opposite "creation", this is often coupled by some physical changes like voice cracking and etc. At school, we have doctors and nurses that do occasional body check. I went through it, they then rate your growth - from facial hair, voice, body structure, etc. And you will notice each people grow differently
Ok here is the thing, if God is never wrong and God in his infinite wisdom decides that Mr A will develop feelings for the opposite ""creation" at 14yrs of age. Then God must have his reasons. The things is each person develops at varying degree at different ages. So when we begin to develop and notice those changes, then we know that that is is time for the next stage in our life. To say that having feelings is wrong then we are doing God a dis-service.
Remember this though - The schooling system was developed by Man not by God, God did not plan the High school, College and University, man did that. To say that a university is wrong to fall in love, is i believe totally inappropriate, did God say that ?
The key is teaching Guys and Gals to "manage" the feelings and work within biblical boundaries. Teach them it is not wrong to have feelings, but teach them how to mange it so that it will not affect their work. Encourage positive interaction, not try and subjugate the people.
The worst thing a church can do is to sweep it all under the carpet and expect every student to be a monk or nun. Seriously this never works. Emotions are very powerful tools and if not handled properly can burn a person badly.
God allow us to mature around 13-18 yrs depending of course on individual, some people never grow-up and may not mature until 30 but... when we first develop such strong emotions, it would have been more constructive to have a peer to guide us how to use the emotions and work within the biblical guidelines.
An example would be when a Father buys his Son a Super-charged Evolution iX, If the Dad do not explain how to drive it and also explain the consequence and set some speed boundaries, of course being a hot-headed teenager there is no guarantee he will not try and drive it at 200KM/hr.
So if you ask me what age ? There is no age, the key is to watch and when you realise someone is coming of age. Guide them along and teach them to handle it better.
Remember, God set everything in His time..
Friday, September 18, 2009
BGR part 2
I know BGR is a really big topic to most people. As I know from experience out of 10 people who leave Hope during my days 6-7 are because of BGR issues. Because we seem to teach that falling in love is a sin, but we often forget that people have feelings and teenagers from 15-25 are human’s with feelings too.
I know that in Hope we teach that students should not be involved in relationship and we actively discouraged it, but the awful truth is .. how many teenagers have the gift of celibacy ??? Seriously I think many times out of our eagerness we go about it the wrong way. Kids will always be kids, crushes are part and parcel of life.
When I was leading the youth group many years back, I learnt one important lesson. Feelings are uncontrollable. How do you tell a guy not to have crush and stop liking a girl, never seen it happen in my whole time. God make us creatures with feelings, so it is crazy to tell a guy to stop have feelings.
That is why I fully agree with some of the comments, we need to teach positive ways to dating and courtship. I like one of the point out we are not their parents and should not overrule the parents decision.
There was another point that brought to my attention while I was reading the comments. I do not know if anyone has experienced it but I certainly have… there seems to be an unspoken rule that we should only find Christian partners in our Hope Church, it sometimes seem that other churches people are not as good as Hope. The reasoning I always get is they have different vision and better to find from within then outside… but what happens if the guys or girls in the church are not what we are looking for ? And don’t forget there are always more female leaders than guys leaders… so… what happen to those unlucky to not find one by 30 ??
I also have heard and seen people saying that because one couple holds a much higher leadership position therefore they are unequally yoke.. I feel sad for them because my friend was under so much stress. So many people were initially against them, but just for me… who are we to judge who is closer to God ?? Just because you have the title that does not make a person more spiritual, probably maybe just that they joined Hope movement much earlier. Titles are given by Men not by God, title do not make a person holier, look at PN and Dr. Kriengsak, they are a good testimony on the irrelevance of title.
Anyway.. I fully agree that BGR is a very hot topic because in essence there are only 2 things which are crucial to a human need..
1. Love and relationship – family, friends, and a partner and of course God
2. Money and career – to buy a house, food and essentials
And I agree with the comments from John – that we should start giving good positive principles instead of scaring people away from relationship. I know Hope Singapore is changing and some Hope Churches are starting to take the lead in this area.
Hopefully we can start to change from the Hope Movement of Old.. and move away from the dogmatic and controlling system under the Old Hope Movement.
Thursday, September 17, 2009
The BGR reviewed
I was really interested to read about our Hope BGR policies in the the comments section and thought I should share something on my perspective.
I suppose every organisation will have their policies and guideline as to how christian should court each other. Unfortunately, though many Churches have attempted to set guidelines and steps on how to have the ideal courtship, the world is a less than ideal place and to try and put human guidelines of dos and dont's we sometimes add more burden on every courting couples.
On hindsight, we can see the wisdom of God, God did not set any binding methods or his ideal courtship program in the bible . God spoke alot on many other issues but apparently dating or courtship is not in the top most important priority. You must wonder why... maybe God realise that it is almost impossible to have a perfect step or ideal courtship.
I think we should take a leaf out of the bible and provide principles instead of methods to dating. Songs of Solomon actually have great insights on how to find your true love.
So what is most church doing wrong ? Well, we often try to give many do's and donts like I know in Hope we should be chaperon on our first date. Or we should try to go out in group dates rather than single dates, we have to be home by 10pm and please call your shepherd when you are home. Now I have been in Hope 17 years and more .. and have seen countless people leave because people are so disillusioned.
The BGR method in the shepherding structure in reality often do not work. Out of every 100, my estimate is only 1 or 2 couple ever gone through the full courtship process. Now let me share some problems which i have faced and maybe we can identify why this system is not ideal
1. How often if you share who you have an interest in, that your shepherd may also be interested in ? The worst to find out is the person you like, your shepherd is also interested... so what should a shepherd do ??? ... I have seen this episode.. and wont elaborate.. but i am sure we can all imagine...
2. How often this happens - you share your interest with your shepherd and in the end ... almost the whole leadership knows who you like.. and when you sit close to "the" person the whole leadership starts to look over you.
3. You share your interest and your leader prematurely let the cat out of the bag... and the other person know. and things becomes awkward.... and wierd....
4. You share with your shepherd your interest and your leader ask you to pray and tells you he is not the one for you.. granted that some cases the person is a new christian but.... seriously... isn't shepherd row just to guide.. and not to play God ? Even i don't know what is going to happen 1 second from now...
5. How often have you attended a BGR seminar and the summary is what you should "not do" and that we all need to keep waiting. You keep getting examples of people who is willing to wait... often times.. somone in their late 30s.... will come up and share the joy of singlehood...seriously.. i dont if i should be happy for them or feel pity for them...
I am sure many people will have faced similar issues, i have seen it, heard about it and experience it. And all i can say from experience is, we should start to teach people how to find the perfect partner and what to look out for in a good partner.
No relationship will be perfect on the first go, I must admit there is always issues we need to deal, and not every one is mature, but we MUST learn to trust people and not have the "they will sin" attitude... towards every relationship. We need to learn to bless to encourage, in Hope i don't know if it is just me but when i first came to Hope i though relationship is a sin.... only later when i grew up, i learnt that it is not true....
We do need to start trusting people, encourage Godly relationship through reinforcing the positives and also allow relationship to develop naturally... We are not God and therefore should not do "arrange marriage". And tell our sheep who they should and should not see.
Hopefully things in the BGR area will change soon
I suppose every organisation will have their policies and guideline as to how christian should court each other. Unfortunately, though many Churches have attempted to set guidelines and steps on how to have the ideal courtship, the world is a less than ideal place and to try and put human guidelines of dos and dont's we sometimes add more burden on every courting couples.
On hindsight, we can see the wisdom of God, God did not set any binding methods or his ideal courtship program in the bible . God spoke alot on many other issues but apparently dating or courtship is not in the top most important priority. You must wonder why... maybe God realise that it is almost impossible to have a perfect step or ideal courtship.
I think we should take a leaf out of the bible and provide principles instead of methods to dating. Songs of Solomon actually have great insights on how to find your true love.
So what is most church doing wrong ? Well, we often try to give many do's and donts like I know in Hope we should be chaperon on our first date. Or we should try to go out in group dates rather than single dates, we have to be home by 10pm and please call your shepherd when you are home. Now I have been in Hope 17 years and more .. and have seen countless people leave because people are so disillusioned.
The BGR method in the shepherding structure in reality often do not work. Out of every 100, my estimate is only 1 or 2 couple ever gone through the full courtship process. Now let me share some problems which i have faced and maybe we can identify why this system is not ideal
1. How often if you share who you have an interest in, that your shepherd may also be interested in ? The worst to find out is the person you like, your shepherd is also interested... so what should a shepherd do ??? ... I have seen this episode.. and wont elaborate.. but i am sure we can all imagine...
2. How often this happens - you share your interest with your shepherd and in the end ... almost the whole leadership knows who you like.. and when you sit close to "the" person the whole leadership starts to look over you.
3. You share your interest and your leader prematurely let the cat out of the bag... and the other person know. and things becomes awkward.... and wierd....
4. You share with your shepherd your interest and your leader ask you to pray and tells you he is not the one for you.. granted that some cases the person is a new christian but.... seriously... isn't shepherd row just to guide.. and not to play God ? Even i don't know what is going to happen 1 second from now...
5. How often have you attended a BGR seminar and the summary is what you should "not do" and that we all need to keep waiting. You keep getting examples of people who is willing to wait... often times.. somone in their late 30s.... will come up and share the joy of singlehood...seriously.. i dont if i should be happy for them or feel pity for them...
I am sure many people will have faced similar issues, i have seen it, heard about it and experience it. And all i can say from experience is, we should start to teach people how to find the perfect partner and what to look out for in a good partner.
No relationship will be perfect on the first go, I must admit there is always issues we need to deal, and not every one is mature, but we MUST learn to trust people and not have the "they will sin" attitude... towards every relationship. We need to learn to bless to encourage, in Hope i don't know if it is just me but when i first came to Hope i though relationship is a sin.... only later when i grew up, i learnt that it is not true....
We do need to start trusting people, encourage Godly relationship through reinforcing the positives and also allow relationship to develop naturally... We are not God and therefore should not do "arrange marriage". And tell our sheep who they should and should not see.
Hopefully things in the BGR area will change soon
Saturday, September 5, 2009
The end purpose - Would HIM or Hope change ?
Just to answer a query, I suppose this blog was designed so that people will know what has happened to Hope and what PN and Dr Joseph did.
Though there have been a major split , everything takes time to change I suppose
Would the leaders respond to this blog, well, i suppose my main aim is not to force a change, but provide an avenue for discussion, and possible change. Information is power and the more people know and understand the issue, the easier it is for change.
You know when people know that they are being watched and policies are being scrutinized, I am sure one day things will change. The problem with Hope Bangkok is no one was watching them and holding them accountable.
So I suppose, as long as this blog is running, people from all over HIM and Hope have a common place to discuss issues.
And i am sure leaders will be reading this site..
Though there have been a major split , everything takes time to change I suppose
Would the leaders respond to this blog, well, i suppose my main aim is not to force a change, but provide an avenue for discussion, and possible change. Information is power and the more people know and understand the issue, the easier it is for change.
You know when people know that they are being watched and policies are being scrutinized, I am sure one day things will change. The problem with Hope Bangkok is no one was watching them and holding them accountable.
So I suppose, as long as this blog is running, people from all over HIM and Hope have a common place to discuss issues.
And i am sure leaders will be reading this site..
Thursday, September 3, 2009
A relook at shepherding
Been thinking about this for awhile, but i think its important to redfine or re-look at our shepherding understanding. Personally i do believe having a mentoring program in Church is a good thing and one when done correctly can encourage the younger christians to grow.
What is the role of a shepherd ?
I do believe as a shepherd one's role is to provide guidance to the person they are mentoring. The important thing is to make sure we do not dictate or tell them what to do.. We are not God and are not suppose to be God over our sheep's life. The aim is to give guidance and advice and allow the sheep to make their own decision.
I have shepherd i know, that actually dictate who and what the sheep should do, where they should study and even who they should marry. That is very dangerous because then we are assuming the role of God.
The greatest problem of a shepherd and leaders
One issue that has been a constant of pain is this, sometimes members tell their shepherd some personal issue in confidence and then in the process, suddenly they found out the whole leadership knows about their issue.
We teach in Hope that if we talk about people without the person's approval then its gossip, but i tell you if a leader talks about a member without the member's knowledge its also gossip. The worst thing i have encountered is when leaders are found out, their excuse is so that we can help the person and learn. I think this is totally wrong, because principle cannot change, if you want to discuss about a member's issue make sure you let the member's know. Personally as a shepherd, if my sheep tell me something in confidence I will not let it out, unless i cannot handle then i would actually ask the sheep's permission or ask them to bring the case up.
I never like telling people's issue upwards without the presence of the person i am discussing because you can either misquote or misunderstood the issue and in the end make a mountain our of a molehill.
Therefore this saying that - every secret has to go upwards is wrong if - the person you are talking about, never knew or is not informed. I tend to dislike it when i attend leader's meeting and leader's discuss personal issues of people in their group. To me i consider it gossip, because the person do not know that this issue has become an open secret.
As leaders we need to uphold the standards we ourselves expect of others. To me I do agree that pastor's should know things happening in church and "if" it relates to the church but alot of times its people's personal struggle so unless permission is first sought before passing on the message, don't just assume pastors have the right to know at the expense of your own personal integrity.
Make sure that when discussing about issues in leadership meeting, no names are used and if a situation becomes too big just ask the person to speak to someone more mature and then pass it on upwards properly.
How to treat the person you are mentoring
Always treat the person you are mentoring with respect and understand that just because they may be our mentee, it does not automatically means they are not intelligent. we somehow have this assumption that all sheep are dumb, its just a paraphase, in reality not everybody would be as dumb as a sheep.
Sometimes we get this false precept that just because they are our mentee, they are not as smart as the leaders, but the problem is that as pointed out by some people, leaders sometimes are raised up very fast, resulting in people with the title but not necessary the experience nor skill to handle issues. I have met many people who i have mentored, who are well-adjusted, intelligent and smart people. They maybe new to the christian faith and lack the knowledge and that is sometimes about it.
Therefore always treat people with respect and in turn your mentee will respect you as a mentor.
What is the role of a shepherd ?
I do believe as a shepherd one's role is to provide guidance to the person they are mentoring. The important thing is to make sure we do not dictate or tell them what to do.. We are not God and are not suppose to be God over our sheep's life. The aim is to give guidance and advice and allow the sheep to make their own decision.
I have shepherd i know, that actually dictate who and what the sheep should do, where they should study and even who they should marry. That is very dangerous because then we are assuming the role of God.
The greatest problem of a shepherd and leaders
One issue that has been a constant of pain is this, sometimes members tell their shepherd some personal issue in confidence and then in the process, suddenly they found out the whole leadership knows about their issue.
We teach in Hope that if we talk about people without the person's approval then its gossip, but i tell you if a leader talks about a member without the member's knowledge its also gossip. The worst thing i have encountered is when leaders are found out, their excuse is so that we can help the person and learn. I think this is totally wrong, because principle cannot change, if you want to discuss about a member's issue make sure you let the member's know. Personally as a shepherd, if my sheep tell me something in confidence I will not let it out, unless i cannot handle then i would actually ask the sheep's permission or ask them to bring the case up.
I never like telling people's issue upwards without the presence of the person i am discussing because you can either misquote or misunderstood the issue and in the end make a mountain our of a molehill.
Therefore this saying that - every secret has to go upwards is wrong if - the person you are talking about, never knew or is not informed. I tend to dislike it when i attend leader's meeting and leader's discuss personal issues of people in their group. To me i consider it gossip, because the person do not know that this issue has become an open secret.
As leaders we need to uphold the standards we ourselves expect of others. To me I do agree that pastor's should know things happening in church and "if" it relates to the church but alot of times its people's personal struggle so unless permission is first sought before passing on the message, don't just assume pastors have the right to know at the expense of your own personal integrity.
Make sure that when discussing about issues in leadership meeting, no names are used and if a situation becomes too big just ask the person to speak to someone more mature and then pass it on upwards properly.
How to treat the person you are mentoring
Always treat the person you are mentoring with respect and understand that just because they may be our mentee, it does not automatically means they are not intelligent. we somehow have this assumption that all sheep are dumb, its just a paraphase, in reality not everybody would be as dumb as a sheep.
Sometimes we get this false precept that just because they are our mentee, they are not as smart as the leaders, but the problem is that as pointed out by some people, leaders sometimes are raised up very fast, resulting in people with the title but not necessary the experience nor skill to handle issues. I have met many people who i have mentored, who are well-adjusted, intelligent and smart people. They maybe new to the christian faith and lack the knowledge and that is sometimes about it.
Therefore always treat people with respect and in turn your mentee will respect you as a mentor.
Wednesday, September 2, 2009
Is Dr Kreingsak a Politician with a difference ???
I have been following some of the developments in the Thai Politics and our so-called founder of Hope of God. Though there are people still in awe of him and how he supposedly spell a new generation of good politicians in Thailand that can make a change.
No doubt I must admit Dr Kriengsak Chareonwongsak is a highly intelligent person who have written more articles I can remember, but to me he is just a typically politicians. By that i mean, I have come to some conclusions that most if not all politicians in Thailand are only able to have power simply because some corners have to be bent. Whatever they maybe yellow or red supporters, the truth is unless you are willing to bend some rules, there is absolutely no way you can be a politican.
For one thing, I know Kriengsak is the same. A typical politician who try to portray himself as a great alternative. Why do i say that :
1. He was willing to lie about his association with Hope even under oath when queried in the courts
2. He moved people in Hope to his electorate to help him gain votes even though it is illegal to do so.
3. He used church money to fund his campaign even though it was illegal
4. He got church people to help him got to temple to perform Buddhist rite
A man driven by the passion to see thailand at the cost of his moral conviction with God and total disregard for his family and the people who had to sin in order to help him.
Would Dr kriengsak be able to make a difference in thailand, i have no doubt that he has the ability and I have no doubt that he can possible use some of his solutions to build thailand. But for me its not the end that is important, but the journey we take to reach our destination, would he be able to shine God's name in a Buddisht Thailand ? I doubt it though.
Yes he may win the battle for Thailand but in the process he would have lost the war to bring people in Thailand closer to God.
His sory is a good reminder to everyone that as we pursue the path that we believe God called us, be it in the marketplace, in Education, in Science, Media, or politics. Never allow your goals to be your God, and in the process forget why you were there in the first place.
Indeed if we do aim to shine for Jesus in the workplace, lets not forget that our final destination is our heavenly home.
Amen.
No doubt I must admit Dr Kriengsak Chareonwongsak is a highly intelligent person who have written more articles I can remember, but to me he is just a typically politicians. By that i mean, I have come to some conclusions that most if not all politicians in Thailand are only able to have power simply because some corners have to be bent. Whatever they maybe yellow or red supporters, the truth is unless you are willing to bend some rules, there is absolutely no way you can be a politican.
For one thing, I know Kriengsak is the same. A typical politician who try to portray himself as a great alternative. Why do i say that :
1. He was willing to lie about his association with Hope even under oath when queried in the courts
2. He moved people in Hope to his electorate to help him gain votes even though it is illegal to do so.
3. He used church money to fund his campaign even though it was illegal
4. He got church people to help him got to temple to perform Buddhist rite
A man driven by the passion to see thailand at the cost of his moral conviction with God and total disregard for his family and the people who had to sin in order to help him.
Would Dr kriengsak be able to make a difference in thailand, i have no doubt that he has the ability and I have no doubt that he can possible use some of his solutions to build thailand. But for me its not the end that is important, but the journey we take to reach our destination, would he be able to shine God's name in a Buddisht Thailand ? I doubt it though.
Yes he may win the battle for Thailand but in the process he would have lost the war to bring people in Thailand closer to God.
His sory is a good reminder to everyone that as we pursue the path that we believe God called us, be it in the marketplace, in Education, in Science, Media, or politics. Never allow your goals to be your God, and in the process forget why you were there in the first place.
Indeed if we do aim to shine for Jesus in the workplace, lets not forget that our final destination is our heavenly home.
Amen.
Saturday, August 29, 2009
Essentials of Church - Part 3
After reading some of the comments from brothers and sisters, I agree that some things do need to change. Hope was definitely work based by nature, it comes as no surprise because we take our model and the church character from our Founder - Dr Kreingsak and Ps. Joseph Srithawang, who advocates a work based model of spirituality. In fact work ethics is very much the basis of promotion in Hope of God church in Bangkok. But as we all can see, in the end they themselves got burned out and fell from God. This is a clear proof that this style of church growth never works. Some of the comments posted in previous Articles were great comments and indeed one reason Kriengsak had to stepped down because he offended many christians by the things he said and did.
In fact if indeed our salvation rate is as high as we always claimed, then in theory our church would have grown leaps and bounds but after 20 + years... all our churchs previously HGI and Bangkok did not show much growth in fact our turnover rate is almost 80% or more. Many of our church struggle to hit 500 people and only Hope Singapore have broken the 1000 people barrier. When i looked at stats from other growing churches around the world many have very high retention rate, and after looking into their method I have come to one conclusion we are doing it all wrong.
We are just so conscious about numbers and like one reader pointed out so into appointing leaders we totally disregard if they are well-equipped. In fact, I have seen leaders went up to the stage to preach even though he was a pretty young christians and in fact after he preached some visiting christians even asked me if he knew what he was saying. I had to keep quiet, apparently the pastor's way of selecting leaders is as long as you obey and submit to him and listen to him, you will be gurranteed a top leadership role regardless of annointing. In fact, the group under him never grow and the pastor have to keep taking people from other group to prop up his group at the expense of the other leaders because he was the pastor's fav.
So even though he was a UL in numbers, the numbers were mainly transferred people who went to his group. So how is that called annointing ?? I have heard him preach a number of times sometimes i don't even know what he was saying. I really think people need to be better trained and equipped. Our Hope theory is always OJT, throw them onto the pulpit and learn as you go. Maybe that is why many times we struggle.
In the church movement run by PN and Dr Kriengsak, we pushed people to invite friends and follow-up, we have stats to make sure we do, we have unit that get people to go to do street evangelism, we create millions of events to do outreach in the hope of getting people to church, because its always been a numbers game in Hope. We have Best of the Best to highlight the importance of numbers
So what have i learned from other growing churches...
1. Make sunday service applicable
- We should start to make Sunday sermons more applicable. Expository teaching verse by verse is good, but i find it more for mature christian's who like to do some meaty teachings. Many times i find my non-christian friends or even some christian fall asleep during preaching session. Because many times the sermon is just not applicable. I empathize with the pastors because they have to follow the Hope Movement law in making sure the teaching is verse by verse and book by book. It is seriously very restrictive, I know because i have been there and done that. After you been in Hope long enough, its always the same principles - Be obedient, be humble, Be kind, Trust God,..... you get my drift.
- I do think to make church more relevant, make teachings that can be applied or teachings that build people up because there is a wider spectrum of people in church therefore it would be better, that we can preach from the lowest common denominator and do bible study when its a special church camp.
Some good preachers and their Style
1. Ps Wayne Coderio - I believe PS Jeff also like this preacher
2. Joel Osten from Lakewood
3. Ps Kong Hee from CHC
4. Brian Houston from Hillsongs
5. Joyce Meyers
6. TD Jakes
7. Ps Rick Warren
8. Ps Bill Hybel
9. Ps Ashely Evans
To name but a few
2. Meet people's needs and treat people like people
I think this is crucially what is missing in Hope, we get so revved up in trying to get people invovled in church, sometimes we just overlook people's issue and needs. How many times we see leaders assumption that when christians are not serving because they are not spiritual ? Yet we overlook some stuggles they may face, maybe they have family issues, problems at studies or relationship issues. Isn't church suppose to be helping people ? Sometimes i feel in Hope Movement, people are just treated as workers and employees, expandable and disposable.
I do not think this is what church is supposed to be. My pastor keep stressing about church planting even though our church was still small. What was the whole purpose, to tell the world we can have Church everywhere ? To win best of the best ? We just keep sending people out without regards if they are ready and if our church could cope.
Guess what, many who went became burnt out because our church have no support structure, no way to help them. Many came back disillusioned and burnt out. Yet when they came back broken, our church never learnt from their mistake but even increased the goal of church planting.
To me, Church planting is importnant, but not at the expense of people's life. Unless the church is ready and is equipped to provide support don't play with people's life. Because ultimately if you are the shepherd and kill your flock you will be help accountable by God.
So when i say meet people's need what do i propose
1. Have a good tuition service to help poorer students
2. Have a ministry to help new graduates find jobs or write resume
3. Have a good counselling service
4. Create good family atmosphere and children church
Create an avenue of help for all level of church - from students, to single adults, to family, to senior group.
I heard a saying from a pastor, If people's needs are met then the church needs will be met too. Because people can serve without any worries.
In fact if indeed our salvation rate is as high as we always claimed, then in theory our church would have grown leaps and bounds but after 20 + years... all our churchs previously HGI and Bangkok did not show much growth in fact our turnover rate is almost 80% or more. Many of our church struggle to hit 500 people and only Hope Singapore have broken the 1000 people barrier. When i looked at stats from other growing churches around the world many have very high retention rate, and after looking into their method I have come to one conclusion we are doing it all wrong.
We are just so conscious about numbers and like one reader pointed out so into appointing leaders we totally disregard if they are well-equipped. In fact, I have seen leaders went up to the stage to preach even though he was a pretty young christians and in fact after he preached some visiting christians even asked me if he knew what he was saying. I had to keep quiet, apparently the pastor's way of selecting leaders is as long as you obey and submit to him and listen to him, you will be gurranteed a top leadership role regardless of annointing. In fact, the group under him never grow and the pastor have to keep taking people from other group to prop up his group at the expense of the other leaders because he was the pastor's fav.
So even though he was a UL in numbers, the numbers were mainly transferred people who went to his group. So how is that called annointing ?? I have heard him preach a number of times sometimes i don't even know what he was saying. I really think people need to be better trained and equipped. Our Hope theory is always OJT, throw them onto the pulpit and learn as you go. Maybe that is why many times we struggle.
In the church movement run by PN and Dr Kriengsak, we pushed people to invite friends and follow-up, we have stats to make sure we do, we have unit that get people to go to do street evangelism, we create millions of events to do outreach in the hope of getting people to church, because its always been a numbers game in Hope. We have Best of the Best to highlight the importance of numbers
So what have i learned from other growing churches...
1. Make sunday service applicable
- We should start to make Sunday sermons more applicable. Expository teaching verse by verse is good, but i find it more for mature christian's who like to do some meaty teachings. Many times i find my non-christian friends or even some christian fall asleep during preaching session. Because many times the sermon is just not applicable. I empathize with the pastors because they have to follow the Hope Movement law in making sure the teaching is verse by verse and book by book. It is seriously very restrictive, I know because i have been there and done that. After you been in Hope long enough, its always the same principles - Be obedient, be humble, Be kind, Trust God,..... you get my drift.
- I do think to make church more relevant, make teachings that can be applied or teachings that build people up because there is a wider spectrum of people in church therefore it would be better, that we can preach from the lowest common denominator and do bible study when its a special church camp.
Some good preachers and their Style
1. Ps Wayne Coderio - I believe PS Jeff also like this preacher
2. Joel Osten from Lakewood
3. Ps Kong Hee from CHC
4. Brian Houston from Hillsongs
5. Joyce Meyers
6. TD Jakes
7. Ps Rick Warren
8. Ps Bill Hybel
9. Ps Ashely Evans
To name but a few
2. Meet people's needs and treat people like people
I think this is crucially what is missing in Hope, we get so revved up in trying to get people invovled in church, sometimes we just overlook people's issue and needs. How many times we see leaders assumption that when christians are not serving because they are not spiritual ? Yet we overlook some stuggles they may face, maybe they have family issues, problems at studies or relationship issues. Isn't church suppose to be helping people ? Sometimes i feel in Hope Movement, people are just treated as workers and employees, expandable and disposable.
I do not think this is what church is supposed to be. My pastor keep stressing about church planting even though our church was still small. What was the whole purpose, to tell the world we can have Church everywhere ? To win best of the best ? We just keep sending people out without regards if they are ready and if our church could cope.
Guess what, many who went became burnt out because our church have no support structure, no way to help them. Many came back disillusioned and burnt out. Yet when they came back broken, our church never learnt from their mistake but even increased the goal of church planting.
To me, Church planting is importnant, but not at the expense of people's life. Unless the church is ready and is equipped to provide support don't play with people's life. Because ultimately if you are the shepherd and kill your flock you will be help accountable by God.
So when i say meet people's need what do i propose
1. Have a good tuition service to help poorer students
2. Have a ministry to help new graduates find jobs or write resume
3. Have a good counselling service
4. Create good family atmosphere and children church
Create an avenue of help for all level of church - from students, to single adults, to family, to senior group.
I heard a saying from a pastor, If people's needs are met then the church needs will be met too. Because people can serve without any worries.
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