tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38635924480447216472024-02-07T00:08:59.249-08:00Your Verdict - Renewing our thoughtsEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.comBlogger123125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-27313679794403005542011-07-20T07:55:00.000-07:002011-07-20T08:53:49.559-07:00My thoughts on recent postIts been a long time since i have visited the blog as i believe the issue with Hope Thailand have been fully explained.<br /><br />I will take this weekend to refresh the blog so we can better read some of the post. I must admit there are many people who have left Hope frustrated and angry. Over the years, i have seen many good friends leave the church but the good thing is many of us are still in touch with one another proving that moving church does not mean burning bridges.<br /><br />I know many people who have left Hope have in one way or another have been let down by the church in one or another. Lets not be bitter but be better<br /><br />if you will allow me to say a few words in regards to the Hope Movement.<br /><br />Firstly, I am in no doubt Hope started out with the full intention of bringing the gospel to the world, which is why many of the pioneer leaders of Hope came from OCS in Australia ad were all previous leaders from other churches . Hope have no evil intention or are a satanic or a cult church, they have good intention but really really bad execution, that have caused some issues along the way.<br /><br />Putting aside the sinful teachings taught by PN and Dr Joseph in regards to idol worship and the frivolous ways money was used in the Thai Churches . Generally most other overseas pastor have preached in line with the gospel.<br /><br />I have learned in all my years as a christian both in the traditional and charismatic movement that great principles alone do not make a great church. Marxist ideology is one simple example, in its purest form; its the epitome of a heaven on earth where classless society work for the common good. But human nature is inherently evil and susceptible to greed, lust and power.<br /><br />Same is true in Hope movement, it had great blue print but bad execution plan no doubt a side-effect from the teaching method of Dr Kreingsak.<br /><br />Lets look at<br /><br />1. Shepherding<br /><br />Its a good mechanism for building the body of christ, I don't disagree that it will be good to have someone to mentor you and build you up. In an ideal world, a strong and well respected christian should mentor and help you grow, but in reality we find due to manpower shortage people are just assign over you sometimes just base on seniority. I have seen new christian less then 3 month shepherding and doing following up. ( Good intention but bad execution)<br /><br />In all seriousness, is there really a huge difference between a 3 month christian and a new believer ? Young christian have tendency to be over zealous teach the wrong thing or even say the wrong things. In some cases when the group grow too fast, many have become a Care leader or Asst. Care leader in 6 months.<br /><br />1 Tim 3 says it all<br /><br /><span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-1.htm"><b>1</b></a></span>Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,<span class="nivfootnote"><sup><a href="http://niv.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/3.htm#footnotesa">a</a></sup></span> he desires a noble task. <span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-2.htm"><b>2</b></a></span>Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, <span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-3.htm"><b>3</b></a></span>not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. <span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-4.htm"><b>4</b></a></span>He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. <span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-5.htm"><b>5</b></a></span>(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) <span style="font-weight: bold;" class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-6.htm">6</a></span><span style="font-weight: bold;">He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil</span>. <span class="reftext"><a href="http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-7.htm"><b>7</b></a></span>He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.<br /><br />Personally, we should not force and push people to be shepherd or make shepherding compulsory for all members.<br /><br />What I think should be the best way forward is<br /><br />1. Get people to join bible study group or a same gender bible group if they wish to know more about the bible and set a mature christian as a big bro or sister.<br /><br />2. Make one-to-one mentoring a privilege. If a person wants a personal mentor let him or her seek out the mentor and if the person wants to mentor someone let him or her make the effort. Good example is Elijah and Elisha. If they are ready God will move the heart<br /><br />If indeed we have been hurt by the Shepherd experience lets all just forgive and move on. Dont let hurt stop you from trusting people.<br /><br />AmenEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com90tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-71721183854456757092011-01-26T06:43:00.000-08:002011-01-26T06:56:49.384-08:00Happy 2011 and my wishIts been a long time since i actually logged onto the blog. With each passing year, I really hope that greater things will come out of the HIM movement, which I am still in but have since adopted a more passive observer role<br /><br />Lets hope the lessons of the past will not be forgotten and we will never make the same mistake again.<br /><br />Many friends who have left the Hope movement have asked me why i never make the move. I suppose like it or hate it, there are some really good principles that have since been adopted by the HIM movement and I would hate to change for the sake of changing.<br /><br />There are a couple of churches which I would have considered but there are not in the country i am residing in.<br /><br />I plan to start blogging again, but this time to share some of my devotion or things i have learned from other teachers and Pastors.<br /><br />So here's wishing everyone a Happy new year.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com364tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-64201763756497680162010-10-02T07:23:00.001-07:002010-10-02T07:29:18.226-07:00A new changeIts been a really long time since i have been on the blog, everything that was meant to be have been done. I think, I will do some clean up of the blog and start out something new. No point dwelling to much on the past.<br /><br />Hope in Thailand is still very much everywhere. Hope Bangkok by Rubina website no longer exist. Ps Nimit has started a new church. PN still trying to get back the church he lost. HIM is still finding its own identity.<br /><br />A few Hope International Church has left the HIM movement, and churches are finding back their own voice again.<br /><br />So I shall leave it here and may those who have found new and better church continue to grow in the Lord.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com20tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-25117388831125553062010-06-06T08:01:00.000-07:002010-06-06T08:49:23.745-07:00Money - the true test of your faithI was pondering about this recently and it just seems so coincidental that God was showing me things i never pondered about in the bible. I was speaking to a number of friends today and it just struck me like a thunder bolt.<br /><br />Of all the greatest test, the test of wealth has always been the key. Most of Jesus parables were dealing with the issue of money. Jesus even affirmed this fact in the bible, that we cannot serve two masters and the two He spoke were God and Mammon ( God of money).<br /><br />Why is money such an important indicator -<br /><br />Money is neither good nor bad. But everything in this world needs money for it to work<br /><br />When we are hungry, we pray and someone bring us out to eat or cook for us. Guess what, it cost money to buy food<br /><br />When we are ill and have to see doctor, Guess what we need money to go to hospital. If we have insurance, it is still money that bought the insurance<br /><br />When we need a church building, we pray God answers prayer and people give, guess what, money to buy the building.<br /><br />So money is the medium and the test, but one of the greatest problem with money is that it has an awesome power to corrupt, it is like a drug, when you have, you want more. Because money can buy you things you always wanted and you thought you never could have.<br /><br />It is note worthy to point out that Judas was the treasurer, the one who controlled the money for the group, the one who got corrupted by the desire. The fact remains, when we are in contact with money, there is always a desire to own it and to want it.<br /><br />Thus we should always treat money with care and especially if the money belongs to the church, we should make sure no one ends up like Judas because there was no accountability.<br />If you really want to know your pastor, just see how he handles money, you can tell more about a person in the way they handle money, then a thousand explanation.<br /><br />I thought I should bring this up because my friend from years back who have returned to Singapore spoke recently about a Church in Singapore called City Harvest. where the pastor and 17 church leaders were brought to CAD regarding on some issues about money. I really hope that when the investigation is done, the church will be clean. Some years back, I think even Hillsongs from Australia was queried over some transactions<br /><br />What i am trying to say is this, Pastors are still human, if you give them unlimited access to church fund without proper accountability, one day they might turn to Judas. There is always a reason why we need check and balance. Remember that for anyone in finance, if we knowingly do things which are not proper and above board. You might end being implicated as well.<br /><br />Make sure whatever you do, it is well documented and written. Especially loans, financial packages, special or noteworthy transactions. Keep it as transparent as possible, this way you will not have to always watch your back.<br /><br />Judas took the test and he failed. Lets not become like him.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com13tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-65853282810533695972010-05-17T07:11:00.001-07:002010-05-17T07:17:25.820-07:00Free Forum to sharehi everyone,<br /><br />As promised way back early in my posting days, i did mention that one day I will give people more voice in what is happening around the Hope Movement.<br /><br />Be it good or bad. Or even sharing of blessing.<br /><br />I will slowly transition to a more open forum based blog so that people can give their idea and thoughts rather then just me alone.<br /><br />Of course blessings or encouragement is greatly welcome too.<br /><br />But this blog will always serve as a voice for the people to allow all Hope and Ex-hope people a common place to share our thoughts.<br /><br />It is important too to provide a place to find out about our church history. Maybe who knows this will be a place where the history of hope can be found.<br /><br />Hopefully this way, when leaders try to hide anything, they will think twice.<br /><br />I will take some time to do a better upgrade to provide a more friendly webpageEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com9tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-68385479575906212452010-05-09T10:11:00.000-07:002010-05-09T10:41:13.096-07:00Spiritual Fine lineAs some comments have talked about cult like behaviour, I thought I will try to get some materials to put on site for discussion. Of course, the list is not exhaustive but I do believe that sometimes things we do, can border between Christlike and Cultlike in behaviour.<br /><br />I will attempt to put some teaching we are taught down and maybe hopefully we can address this.<br /><br />Hope teaching No 1. - This was Dr.J favourite : As long as you can still walk and not tied to the bed and even if you are sick, you should still come to church. By coming to church, you can be prayed for and be healed.<br /><br /><br />Hope teaching No.2 - We are christian who happens to be student. So, our aim is to be God's ambassador at school. Therefore, in essence our main duty is to bring people to christ and study is "sort of" secondary.<br /><br />Hope teaching No.3 - We should believe that our church is the best. Because we should be proud of our church. We should never think that we are not good in anything. We should believe we have the best Worship, best teaching, best ministry.<br /><br />Hope teaching No.4 - We should come for ever activity that the church organize, and be involve as much as you can, even if you have to give up other activities or sports. Of course, attendance sheet is just to get stats.<br /><br />Hope teaching No 5. - We must get approval from our leaders and go through "proper channel" in all your BGR issues. Non-approval of relationship will result in severe disciplinary punishment. Technically its like arrange marriage marriage only, this time the shepherd and leaders play the " parents".<br /><br />Hope teaching No 6 - Leaders always knows best, and if you don't understand their decision just obey. Because they are chosen by God.<br /><br /><br />I suppose what I would like to say is that there is no absolute right or wrong. Just how things are phased and practiced. Anything taken to extreme will be bad for health. There is no doubt about it. Unfortunately, we live in a world where human beings try to use the principles of God to try and integrate with everyday practical living.<br /><br />To one total obedience is a virtue to be attained, to another its called being brainwashed. Ultimately, I believe we just have to use our own wisdom and come up with our own personal guideline that you believe are within the confines of God's principle.<br /><br />Hope may believe that church planting and being a church planter is the key, but if you believe that Pastoral care and mercy mission is the way to win the world, then its what God called you.<br />Some people believe that music can heal and bring the world closer to God, others believe that prayer is the key. There is no one way, no one answer. God gave us choice, so in it he also created diversity, what works for you may not work for another person.<br /><br />For one thing, God gave us a brain and he gave us logic and wisdom. I am sure He expects us to use it. I am not advocating that Hope teaching is all bad, nor am i saying its the best thing in the world. God's principle never changes, its people that change when they try to box God's principle into prescribed methods.<br /><br />What do you believe ? Anyway below is an article that maybe can expand our horizon<br /><br /><h1 align="center"><span style="color: rgb(128, 0, 0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:100%;" >Warning signs of a destructive cult</span></h1> <h4 align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >Do you know someone in a destructive cult? </span></h4> <h4 align="justify"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >Warning signs!</span></h4> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >Anyone could attack a group they disagree with by unfairly labeling it a destructive cult. How would you know whether it really were such a cult or not? Isn't there an objective method to evaluate groups for cultic tendencies? Yes. The following early warning signs can help you reasonably determine whether or not a group is likely to be a destructive cult, and if you should be concerned about a friend, coworker, or loved one being involved with it.</span> </p><p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >The main reason that the following destructive cult tactics are so damaging to both the individual and society is because they debilitate rationality and reduce empathy. Rationality and empathy are indispensable in making good personal and social decisions. History is littered with personal and social catastrophes where a lack of rationality and lack of empathy were its core causes.</span> </p><h4 align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >Ask yourself if the following criteria apply to the group you are concerned about.</span></h4> <ol type="1"><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of its members' behavior. </b> Cults are likely to dictate in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard.</b> Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully follow cult rules. They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, honorable groups teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. </b> Altruistic movements, established religions, and other honorable groups also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group's main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult's real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. </b> The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to mind control to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. </b> The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. </b> For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them from impending doom.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. </b> Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.</span></p> </li><li> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" ><b>A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic.</b> Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult. The leader then takes control over followers' possessions, money, time, and lives.</span></p> </li></ol> <p align="justify"><span style=";font-family:Verdana;font-size:85%;" >If you know someone who belongs to a group that demonstrates a significant number of these warning signs and you would like more information on how to deal with destructive cults or mind control, go to <a href="http://www.factnet.org/index.html">www.factnet.org</a>.</span></p>Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-22993087650215402142010-04-21T05:57:00.001-07:002010-04-21T06:42:47.176-07:00The current HopeHere is a reply to a comment posted regarding our Hope movement.<br /><br />I have been observing for awhile now to see any big changes happening in the Hope Movement after the split, I must say we are still getting there.<br /><br />The Hope Movement have split now for slightly over a year. In Hope Bangkok, there have been big changes happening everyday. Daily you will hear people moving and new churches starting up.<br /><br />Foundation have split into many smaller churches and are now around 200-300 people. Ps Nimit started a new church as I reported earlier.<br /><br />Ps PN too have their own issue and split, though its slightly more minor then Foundation. Most split churches have used New Church names to disassociate from Hope Brand name and have either become independent or joined the HIM banner.<br /><br />Ps PN have been able to go on preaching because no one stood up to make a stand, to inform the Christian circle of his misdeed. In other part of Christiandom, pastor who committed adultery will be asked to step down, but not so for Ps PN.<br /><br />It does feel every top leader missed the point, PN should never be allowed to take the pulpit without first stepping and proving his integrity and morality. Neither HIM nor Pastors in Thailand have said anything publicly except Ps PK from Hope London, and for that i admire his righteousness, some pastor felt it was too strong, but not me, I call a spade a spade.<br /><br />Hope's greatest failing is that it always chooses the diplomatic route, instead of standing for what is right. When members sin, we are always quick to pinpoint members sin, but when a leader sin, we are always told to be understanding and be "nice".<br /><br />In the international scene, under HIM 2 churches have decided to go independent as mentioned in previous article.<br /><br />Have HIM change ? I think its trying. I see leaders trying to make a difference. We held conference called rediscovering our core. We try to put things right, but as is with big organization everything takes time. Some people have chose to leave Hope instead of waiting, some like me are still waiting to see.<br /><br />Issues in Hope<br /><br />Money - Yes money have been a sticking point in Hope, from its inception. We used to have the HGI tithes of 20%, which I have tried asking but no one could account for the money in there. Hope in general have been quite lax in this area i must admit. There is no clear policy or guideline about the use of money in terms of salary package, what is reimbursable cost, etc. Some region do have a guideline on pay package but from my knowledge its up to own church to decide and very region specific - which is all i can say. Some churches are better at handling money and some not so. Hope Singapore would be financially the most stable church. I know this area is a very sticky area and HIM may not want to touch this aspect as of now. I think if i am not wrong, they are trying to set-up a general policy for all HIM churches but its still in the early stage<br /><br />Shepherding - I don't think anything will change in this area. BGR policy and how we function in the system will always be very subjective. The idea of shepherding is a good one, but the quality and type of advice and shepherding will always be dependent on the shepherd you get. Not all shepherd are the same, because the truth is some do become shepherd too fast and may not have enough experience or understanding to handle sheep. I have always believe, the title of shepherd must be first earned with your life and example.<br /><br />Transparency and obedience - Transparency is something HIM is trying hard to build. Its still not easy. There is over 20 plus years of Hope Ideology which i must admit are not all good. The problem we have is applying principle into practical everyday living, which is totally impossible. We build rules and regulation we apply across the board, not factoring other circumstances. In principle, we teach people to love and serve God, which is right. But in Hope's understanding serving means - use your time to meet, follow-up, shepherding, leadership training, run care group, church plant, anything else is not important. The truth is God created us all different, with different gifting, different way of life and interest, we love God by putting God central of what we do. We can serve God too by studying doing well at school and be a testimony, we can play music, open business and support the church by other means. Rigidity had always been our problem. We must start to learn from other churches around the world too. Whatever we will be able to break the mold will largely depend on the leaders leading HIM. I suppose this will be awhile before we see any major shift in paradigm<br /><br />Conclusion<br /><br />Because Hope HIM is very much still a very "young" organization, which has just gone through a huge split and shaking. I don't foresee significant change that soon. I think we must all understand, if the top leaders hit the wrong note too soon, who knows more churches will decide to come out and become independent. Its really a catch 22 situation . So all i can say is pray and keep faith.<br /><br />Set a dateline for yourself, if you still don't see the change you desire or course you can go to other church where you can serve better. Don't stay bitter, just become better.<br /><br />AmenEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com45tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-81601101064027654842010-04-17T08:47:00.000-07:002010-04-17T09:28:17.972-07:00Hope LegacyIts been a while since i wrote on any updates, been thinking about the Hope Movement lately. I suppose over the course of over 25 years, the movement have scarred quite a number of people along the way, reading from the comments, I get a sense that our movement have swept many things under the carpet in the past.<br /><br />Over the years, in the aim of pushing the 1 million churches by 2015, we have sacrificed many good people pushing them into mission field to reach the ultimate goal. I have lost many good friends burnt out and tired, trying to reach the goal of church planting.<br /><br />Over more then a decade, I kept the "body count" of burnt out people, because of Dr Joseph and Ps PN pushing their agenda and dreams. Its truly a very fine line between God's call and personal agenda. Jehovah Witness and Mormons are also "Supposedly" spreading the Gospel, sometimes people maybe sincere but sincerely wrong.<br /><br />For all I know Ps PN and Dr Joseph started out well but got side tracked along the way - one by the love of power ( Dr Joseph ) and one by the love woman ( Ps PN) - the saddest thing is the people in the Hope Bangkok church still don't know or don't believe Ps PN committed adultery.<br />Even big pastors around the world have absolutely no clue, i don't know if HIM should take a more bold stand - we preach holiness and integrity. What are leader's responsibility when you see our own brother's and sister's still living in a lie, not knowing the severity of the sin the leaders have committed.<br /><br />I recently read a blog from a non-hope person, stating the Hope Church split because of financial and political issue. It does tell me many people are still unwilling to speak up, but why ? Should the leaders from the ex-hope take a bolder stand and not be too diplomatic and forgo those niceties ?<br /><br />There are still good leaders in HIM and those that truly walk by faith, over the course of this split and the trials and tribulations of Hope, strong leaders have emerged. I really hope we can get rid of the stigma of the Hope legacy, there are some good principles we can keep but we should set a new direction, a new name hopefully. Its getting confusing sometimes, when you see Hope Church in certain places but they belong to different factions. Can u imagine 2-3 hope churches in one same place calling by the same name, same mission statement but run by different head ?<br /><br />I do wish besides discovering our core this new chapter, we can set out doing something different. We should keep the Shepherding system, the follow-up and Cell system, but do away with the elitist attitude of " Leaders knows best attitude", because sometimes leaders don't know best. When Peter made mistake regarding partaking of food with Gentiles, Paul still could rebuke him and show him what he did was wrong.<br /><br />In all honest truth, there were some bad choices and decisions made, leaders were promoted because of loyalty rather then spirituality. By loyalty i mean blind loyalty, Leader is always right and never wrong. When leader is wrong its because God's will changed.<br /><br />I know in the blog, there have been some heated arguments about churches and pastors, but who am i to judge. God must have His reasons for everything. As leaders of God's flock, we will ultimately be accountable to God himself, no one can blame others and try to shift the responsibility away.<br /><br /><br />What i am trying to say is this, we should always cover the very area which destroyed Hope, the legacy left by the leaders of the movement. Have anyone every wondered, if blessing flow from Top down, what about curses ? Meaning every Pastor and leader who have been in Hope will ultimately face these test - Money, Power and Lust, Keep watch and pray so that we will pass this test.<br /><br />I know there have been comments on these issues in the blog, I do pray its not all true, if it is it will be so saddening. I really Hope these is not the legacy we are going to leave behind as a movement.<br /><br /><br />I am praying this is a start of a new chapter, hopefully for those friends who have left Hope, may God give you strength.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com20tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-75217209967484198722010-03-24T22:19:00.000-07:002010-03-24T22:37:47.276-07:00Latest from HopeYes in case you have not heard. There have been some changes in our movement. Its confusing with everyone using the same name as such.<br /><br />Hope Bangkok now is only about 400-500 people. Ps Nimit has started a new church due to some direction differences. The Hope Bangkok Website has of course changed. There is a new Pastor taking chrage now in Hope Place<br /><br />There are I think 2-3 new churches which stared 2 i believe from Hope Bangkok and possibly one that came out from PN.<br /><br />Also internationally, Both Hong Kong and Hope Sydney is not under HIM banner, regardless though I do wish them well. I think in a more positive light at least it allows the Pastor to lead the church and set his own direction. In any case the kingdom of God still advances.<br /><br />I really do hope the movement will adopt a new name, so that it will avoid any confusion. Seeing that PN is planning to launch his international crusade to win back lost ground. It took them 20 years to establish the Hope Movement. I suppose it will take as long to do that as well.<br /><br />I will add in the new website links too. So we can see how our movement have changed and grow. I believe positive things will come out<br /><br />One of the new link is called the Alive Church in BangkokEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-28930499176094385552010-03-16T17:39:00.000-07:002010-03-16T17:58:20.804-07:00New Changes in Hope BangkokIt does seems that there are more things happening in Bangkok. Many more pastors from Hope Foundation and also Hope Bangkok under PN are splitting and starting their own church.<br /><br />In bangkok now, where there was one huge church Hope Bangkok, there are now at least a dozen or more splinter churches that have started. I think this is a really good thing and i am sure it will be a start of revival in Bangkok<br /><br />and in case you have not heard Ps Nimit has also started a new church. I will post up the new churches in Bangkok<br /><br />I will post more details once i have more information.<br /><br />I have also read article online mentioning about PN but every article seems to miss out the fact that PN had to step down because of adultery.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com6tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-6990490654109592722010-01-26T05:55:00.000-08:002010-01-26T06:05:46.148-08:00News in BangkokHere are some news from Hope Bangkok,<br /><br />Apparently now Hope has send people to Hong Kong to start Hope Church. Well, it would be interesting to see 2 different Hope in Hong Kong.<br /><br />Hope Hong Kong currently I believe decided to go independent, so it would be an interesting development happening in Hong Kong. I wonder if Hope Hong Kong remembered to register.<br /><br /><h1 class="style75">Opening Hope of Hong Kong <o:p></o:p></h1> <p class="MsoNormal"><span>On Nov 27<sup>th</sup> Pastor EE Nipa Saeboon and team traveled to Hong Kong with the purpose of pioneering the<span class="style37"><span lang="th"><img class="style93" src="http://www.wehopefamily.net/images/hk1.jpg" style="float: right;" height="149" width="216" /></span></span> church. As of now our family in Hong Kong already consists of more than 30 people. Pastor Nipa is humble and always willing to sacrifice for the kingdom of God, and she has now been entrusted by Pastor PN who has placed her in charge of Hope of Hong Kong Church. If you are passing through Hong Kong or moving to Hong Kong, you may find more details by contacting</span></p><h1 class="style75"><br /></h1><h1 class="style75"><br /></h1><br />News about PN ....<br /><br /><h1 class="style75">Pastor PN General Secretary of CFAM<o:p></o:p></h1> <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Towards the end of Oct. 2009, Pastor Phisanunart Srithawong [PN] of Hope of Bangkok Church was chosen for the position of General Secretary of “Christ For Asia Movement” [CFAM]. CFAM an organization which many of the large churches in Asia have come together in, has a base in Manila Philippians.<o:p></o:p></span></p> <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Don’t forget to pray for Pastor PN’s good friend; he will be running for president in the upcoming May 2010 elections. Pastor Eddie is Pastor of the “Jesus is Lord Church” in Manila, Philippians. In March of 2009 Dr Cindy Jacobs Had a word of prophecy for Pastor Eddie and encouraged him. Dr. Cindy is supportive and teaches the concept of the seven Mt. to encourage believers to be a blessing to their society, politics being one of the seven.</span></p>Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com58tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-90156790716696683272010-01-25T23:10:00.000-08:002010-01-25T23:30:43.544-08:00Principle of Financial Management IISalary and Allowance<br /><br />The great ambiguity of these 2 terms are often intertwined together, that sometimes we mix the two term up. In my opinion, an allowance is provided on top of any assistance the church gives to its staff.<br /><br />For example, a full-time staff could choose Cash Salary or simply Church support as a basic remuneration. As both would undoubtedly serve the same function.<br /><br />Salary is given so that people can use the money to pay for Food, lodging, transport and all daily necessities, if the church provide already provide lodging, transport and reimbursement of food then its considered salary. And amount given beyond these would be termed an allowance.<br /><br />In my opinion, it is always good to separate Church and personal items as these would create better accountability. As pastor or full-time staff, we should always consider when doing reimbursement if the items are for Church of personal.<br /><br />Some of the most common gray area during Ps PN days were reimbursement for entertainment expenses, petrol. For smaller churches where church would support the rental of church office and staff housing, it is always important to try and keep the items black and white.<br /><br />When we buy items and reimbursed it under church we need to consider if the item used is mainly for the church for their own family and persnal use. If church buys a car or van, is the vehicle used more for personal and family purpose or used mainly for church purpose.<br /><br />My recommendation is always to keep church and personal vehicle separate so that people cannot say we are abusing our authority. Unless the Vehicle is given to the staff and is not part of church repsonsiblity then Staff becomes responsible for its maintenance and insurance.<br /><br />The issue in Hope is that since everyone is also serving almost at the same capacity as the pastor meaning going to meet people for shepherding, meetings, spending money or their own sheep. If the full-time staff starts to claim reimbursement then everyone in Church would therefore by precedent be able to claim, unless of course, only full-time staff do the shepherding and follow-up.<br /><br />Thus i think one of the biggest change we must consider is to keep money as black and white as possible so that no one can say we are abusing our authority.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-8169757978217428902010-01-06T05:27:00.000-08:002010-01-06T05:59:11.493-08:00Principle of Good financial managementFirstly, Happy new year to all. I thought after a nice holiday season we should start afresh and discuss something new. Hopefully we can get some contribution from different people<br /><br />It has always been my belief that as a christian, we have to handle God's finance with utmost integrity and respect. Good financial practice is a sign of maturity in a christian and the key to greater blessing from God<br /><br />Most parables Jesus dealt with in the bible often relates to the stewardship of money, because Jesus knew that Money though is neither good nor bad has a powerful effect on people and that everything in this world revolves around the use of money from buying a house, tithing, building a church, having enough food to eat and clothes to wear. Nothing in this world is free, thus money is the key medium in this world.<br /><br />Because money can be such a powerful "drug" when not properly used. It is imperative that as Christian we need to recognise the importance of proper accountability.<br /><br />Here are some important tips that we must never forget<br /><br />1. Ensure a good balance in your church board and allow a good mix of people. Hope Singapore have a very good website which have a varied board to ensure impartiality<br /><br />2. Keep a good budget and try to stay close to it. If expenses deviates too much, ensure that the board is well informed.<br /><br />3. Have clear Salary package and guideline. This area have been the biggest headache even in the corporate place. We need to ensure that clear salary package is written in the contract to avoid misunderstanding and especially grey areas<br /><br />4. All churches should have an agreed guideline for reimbursements, so that all staff will know what can and cannot be reimbursed. Providing ambiguous guideline often causes confusion.<br /><br />Eg. Can we reimbursed food when Church staff meet up the sheep ? Can Church staff claim reimbursement for Church camp ? What about mobile phone, cars and petrol, which is very much a part of church ministry ?<br /><br />There is no hard and fast rules, but we do need to make it clear to the people. Hope BKK failed in this area that is why Hope Church was split because of how PN and Dr J used Church money.<br /><br />5. Try and keep personal cost and church cost as separate as possible. The more we mix it up the more dangerous it becomes to cross the line. If unsure, I believe it is always the responsiblity of the church staff or Pastor to ask the board and account before the money is reimbursed.<br /><br />6. Have annual audit and ensure transparency in all church accounts, this way members will feel that leaders have nothing to hide. When leaders refuse or fail to be forthcoming when approach about church finance usually more often then not, there is something not quite right.<br /><br />Finally, dont't be afraid to ask, the leaders owe it to the members to be open and accountable in the church finance. Good financial practice are hard to do, even the corporate failed so many times, as a church we need to set and example and be the light to the the way.<br /><br />If you think that there is something i miss out feel free to add in the comments. Or if you got something to share or a testimony. That would be good too.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com7tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-77202736951174748962009-12-20T14:32:00.000-08:002010-01-06T05:59:31.723-08:00Hope Perth Summary and History (Updated)I have taken sometime and also from my knowledge of the Hope History to provide a quick summary of Hope Perth . As there are many comments which has alot of emotions running. I Hope by providing only factual accounts and summarising the issues in a neutral way that we can be objective. I believe everyone has a point.<br /><br /><br />History<br /><br />Hope Perth began very early on and was among the first few international churches started by Hope Bangkok, under Dr Joseph Kriengsak. He preached during one of the OCF camp and challenged many people to start a church. I believe one of the teachings was One Man One World.<br /><br />The first leader was called S.C. But the leader left the movement but still resides in Perth . Leaders from Singapore were then assigned to comeover to help out in the interim. Then a leader from Canberra decided to heed the call and come over to Perth to help the church. He was indeed ordained as a Pastor and its a title he held and conferred by HGI. The church at that time was around 40 over people strong. The number was as high as 70 people at the time<br /><br />Due to personal reasons he had to change his role but was still serving in the Church, and interim leaders were asked to help out, until a new coordinator came from Malaysia, she was challenged by the Pastor from KL to come over. She held the co-coordinator role until around 2002-03, where she decided to return back to KL, there are a number of reasons given for her decision to leave to KL not just about the people in Perth. The number I believe was around the 30-50 people region depending on the season.<br /><br />As in most Oceania Churches, the numbers usually drop during the holiday period as most are student dominated and church number usually drop when Student return home for holiday.<br /><br />During this time, a family from Bangkok was challenged to go to perth. This family was the pitavanik family. Ps Stephen was asked to come over and head the church. He came over on a student visa and as mentioned by YLC regarding remuneration, which i believe should be a factual account as his comments were never attacked by anyone.<br /><br />Taken from YLC post :<br /><br />The remuneration packages for Pastor Stephen and his predecessor were exactly that – a package, never 100% cash in hand. Accommodation costs like rent and the electricity, gas and water expenses were paid directly to the landlord or creditor without going through the pastor’s bank account. Original invoices and receipts were retained on file. The pastor would only receive the food, petrol and honorarium allowances by cheque. All church cheques were crossed “not negotiable” and had to be banked into an account. I left detailed written summaries on the church’s accounting files that show how the amounts on each cheque were calculated. Pertinent details were written on the relevant cheque butts. A clear paper trail existed for audit purposes.<br /><br />The actual amounts paid to Pastor Stephen and his predecessor were not disclosed to the church generally or made publicly available. For the reasons set out above and in instalment 2, I think we should be comfortable with that position.<br /><br />In my view it was sufficient that during my watch:<br /><br />a) the system of checks and balances I have explained was in place and functioning;<br />b) the church’s authorised signatories who signed cheques with me knew the actual amounts being paid and had no objections; and<br />c) the actual amounts paid to the pastors every financial year were included at the end of that financial year on the revenue and expense statements made available to the church leadership team for them to examine.<br /><br />Here are some actual numbers for the accountants:<br /><br />In the 2003-2004 financial year, Hope Perth spent $38,044.49 against revenue of $46,888.98. Of the $38,044.49 spent, $13,780.52 went to supporting the pastors. Not earth shattering numbers. Of the $8,844.49 operating surplus, $7,351.05 (20%) went to HGI and $735.11 (2%) went to Hope Australia.<br /><br />In theory this left a $758.33 surplus. In reality the position was more challenging as $1,907.95 of the revenue was comprised of interest earned on the money in the building fund. While the building fund and interest earned on its principal was preserved, we had in effect run a $1,149.62 deficit to fund regular activities.This was as far as I was prepared to let things go.<br /><br />In the following 2004-2005 financial year (my last since my family left not too long thereafter) we had tithes and offerings revenue of $55,881.63 and spent a total of $54,347.83. There were also other sources of income. The operating surplus exceeded $1,533.80 and compensated for the deficit the previous year. In addition, interest was earned on the principal in building fund. The entire building fund of approximately $32,000-$35,000 was intact.<br /><br />In 2004-2005, Pastor Stephen received a larger package than his predecessor. That was logical. He has a wife and 2 children to support and Pastor Hannah, Joseph and Benjung contributed significantly to the spiritual well being of the church. The increased revenue had allowed me to present a larger remuneration package. A package I would have been delighted to present to his predecessor.<br /><br />( unquote)<br /><br />Conclusion<br /><br />It is in my belief that Financial numbers were presented and were available to anyone since the inception of the church. Though it might not be on a regular basis, I believe it is Hope standard practice to show at least the figure once a year even in Hope Bangkok.<br /><br />Hope Perth during the whole period of its existence average around 40. Hope perth grew under Ps Stephen from around an average of 40 people to an average of around 100 from 2003- current.<br /><br />Issues did arise, as per what was discussed and there are number of different opinion as to the reasons why this occurred.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com7tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-65353001195472013202009-12-07T07:07:00.000-08:002009-12-07T08:04:48.802-08:00Hope Bangkok Church the reason for the blog.It is interesting to note many of the comments being posted regarding the Hope perth issue. Just to make it clear, i am not anti-HIM nor Church which do the right thing.<br /><br />The biggest issue why this blog exist is because Ps PN and Dr Joseph Kriengsak is still trying to manipulate churches to try and restall their power in the previous Hope Movement. They have also recently align themselves with some other church planting movement. I saw a number of links from their website - these are the Friends of Hope<br /><br />1. Apostolic Fellowship international<br />2. City Harvest Church<br />3. K.A.N.A.P<br />4. Project Amazon<br />5. Hosanna<br />6. Jesus is Lord Fellowship<br />7 Kings Christian Centre<br />8. Living Faith Fellowship<br /><br />I believe not many people or the pastor know actually what is going on in the Hope Movement<br />I think HIM should actually write a formal letter to explain the situation. If you have friends in the these churches, you should let them know.<br /><br />I think PN is trying to get more churches to be affiliated to Hope to help make them look good.<br /><br />Just one fact. PN committed adultery and refused to step from leadership to be restored properly and instead split the church, would be sufficient for the pastors I believe.<br /><br />As for the Hope Perth issue, I can only cast an open verdict there are alot of points and comments about the pastor. It will really be up to HIM to decide what is the best foot forward.<br /><br />All I can say is as long as the Pastor walk with God the Church will grow, Pastor will make mistake and to grow one have to learn from ones own mistake, so that the church will grow under him or her.<br /><br />Now regarding the Perth issue,<br /><br />For those who left Hope Perth because of the Pastor, if he did do anything wrong do not worry, God ultimately will decide, trust me nothing is more stressful than a stagnating church, because after all that is why we have a pastor, to guide and grow God's church. You wouldn't belive the stress of seeing a church with the same number for 6-7 years.<br /><br />For those who choose to stay in Hope perth and believe that the pastor is the best thing that happen to Perth, all i can say is then let the growth of the church be a statement of your confidence.<br /><br />We can all argue till we are blue in the face, but ultimately just like Hope Bangkok, when Ps PN sin against God by committing adultery, stealing God's money to help finance Dr Joseph Kreingsak and leading his sheep astray by false teaching. Then i assure you, God's judgement hand will be upon the leader just like he split Hope Movement.<br /><br />All I can say only TIME will TELL.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com158tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-7043026295662433332009-11-11T05:31:00.000-08:002010-01-06T05:59:48.106-08:00Hope Perth Church - Discussion ( Updated)<span>I have updated the post discussion with the relevant article as the other article was about something different. There are now 101 comments on the Hope perth issue and would try to summarize the 101 comments as best as i can. </span>If in anyway there is doubt over the summary do kindly just read all the comments in previous post. I will take out personal discussion between commentators to try and put a succinct and concise summary on issues that were raised and are still being discussed. I will also post a comment regarding the current situation.<br /><br />Issues that were raised were mainly about Policies implemented in Hope Perth Church, finance issues and issues relating to the Pastor in charge.<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(153, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">Quote from white Knight </span><br /><br />1. Did he stop people from going and attending people's wedding once you leave church ?? Yes or no ?<br />2. Did he really wanted to buy an airplane ? ( Yes or No ? )- even at the expense of disobeying the top leaders ? Yes or No ?<br />3. Does he take people feedback and use it in the sermon without first talking to the person. Yes or No ?<br />4. Was the financial issue mentioned really true ? What was the type of benefit he is getting from the church ? Is there every a full disclosure of spending and transparency of account ?<br /><br /><span style="color: rgb(204, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">Quote from Just a friendly HIM friend </span><br /><br />1. I believe Hope Perth was never at 20+. Maybe during holiday period.<br />But I think we should also give the other leaders before Ps Stephen who lead Hope perth some credit.<br /><br /><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0); font-weight: bold;">Quote from Genesis, VIC, XXX, etc : Summary on what i gather </span><br /></div><br />1. General Half-truth being spoken most of the time by leaders - I believe the issues are diverse it may be on a case to case issue. ( Have to read the blog ) - you have to read the comments<br />2. A few issues were also raised into the purpose and existence of the Emergency Fund and Church Building Fund and why there are no more accounts<br />3. Also an issue was raised about AGM where not every member were invited but only selected group of people<br />3 Issues regarding Church mission car and how it came about raised by Witness and King Bonanza which is being revealed YLC<br /><div style="text-align: left;"><ul><li>"<span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">As the church grew in numbers from 20+ to 100+, he started mission trips to further parts of WA along with his leadership team, so he requested to get a car for mission trip, but was rejected by the person who in charged of the finance. Frankly, I do not have the in-between details as to why the person rejected the purchase for the mission car, what I can see and testify is Ps Stephen's heartbeat to win many souls for God, and he has been consistent through the years I know him." - By Witness </span></li></ul></div><span dir="ltr"><span style="font-weight: bold;">King Bonza</span></span><span style="font-weight: bold;"> said...Witness, please help me with my memory.</span><br /><ul><li><span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">You wrote that Pastor Stephen’s request for the mission car was rejected by the person in charge of finance. How then did Pastor Stephen pay for the dark purple Kia Carnival which he bought just before Pastor Prayuth visited to teach the worship team? Pastor Stephen couldn’t access the church’s money then without help could he?</span></li></ul>I think among all these 57 comments these were the more pertinent questions relating to Hope Perth Church. - I will try to sum it up as these simple points that are being discussed by both side of the party. Please bear in mind this is not exhaustive but a quick summary of what is being discussed.<br /><br />1. Church finance policy<br /><ul><li>Remuneration and benefit for pastor</li><li>Mission Car ( still being discussed by YLC)</li><li>Emergency fund and Church building fund</li><li>Transparency of church accounts</li></ul>There have been some doubt as to how money was spend in the church and the benefits provided for the pastor. One commentator mentioned that Pastor did claim to want to take-over and be in charge of finance and he did preached that in the sermon, while another said that he handed it over to someone to take charge. There were claims of high pay and benefits including housing allowance, provision of the use of 2 vehicle for the family and also higher pay due to his Visa requirement. Emergency fund was mentioned and one commentator asked why it was stopped and never mentioned again. There was also an apparent in the transparency of the accounts and good policies to handle finance.<br /><br /><br />2. Integrity issue with the pastor<br /><ul><li>talking about people who left church without their knowledge</li><li>Forbidding people from associating with those who left church including wedding<br /></li><li>using people's feedback in sermon without their consent<br /></li><li>wanting a buy a plane and learning to fly even when Hope eldership did not agree.</li></ul>This seems to be a black and white case, as both side did not disagree on the policy Pastor Stephen implemented but only on how it was done and implemented. The plane issue was discussed and both side though seem to have differing opinion as to how and when the plane will be bought. Pastor using feedback or using stories without people's consent was another thing brought up but no responses were varied<br /><br />Conclusion<br /><br />In all many points were raised and does seem valid, people must feel really strongly to have raised such an issue concerning the pastor. As i myself have also not come across any Hope Church members mentioning about their pastor.<br /><br />As a leader we must always remember we need to be always live up to what we have attain, flaming people and telling Half-truth will only get people more riled up especially if the stories make one party seem good and the other seem bad. As for finance, i do suggest a better policy and more independent board to ensure greater transparency.<br /><br />Whatever the Pastor from Hope Perth is doing the right thing or wrong thing only time will tell, he should take the experience he has from Thailand, both the success and failures and learn to be a better person.<br /><br />I do think if he does change, i am sure people will be willing to forgive him. No man is perfect and we do not expect one to be, but we should always strive towards perfection, learning from our mistakes and become a better person in the end.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com210tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-19799196473588561482009-11-10T01:45:00.000-08:002009-11-28T01:48:45.727-08:00We are all responsibleFrom all the comments I have read recently, there seems to be some slight elements of the Old Hope BKK approach and ideals. Here is some thoughts which may help all of us.<br /><br />1. Leaders are also human and do face temptation, giving leaders too much power without proper accountability is not helping the leader. Dr J and PN are case in point. If in doubt over finance ask for clarification. Not just the leaders words, but a proper disclosure. Most churches will have financial statement audited by proper accounting firm.<br /><br />2. Listen to the complaints and check out the stories. We often say there is no smoke without a fire. If you see people complaining the same thing and it is not an isolated case, but one which constantly resurface. Maybe there is some truth to what people are saying and make your own investigation. Don't just listen to one side just because they are leaders. That was the problem the catholic church had when boys complained of sexaul abuse by the priest but people choose to ignore until the issue was brought to light.<br /><br />3. If in doubt over issues or certain behaviour, speak to higher leader, every pastor in HIM have someone overseeing them. Speak to the higher authority clarify the blibical way. If something seems not right, dont sweep it under the carpet. There are always some truth to peoples complaint. The term rebellious and bad spirit is used to often to cover the leaders fault and issues. Use our own judgment. God says he wants to transform our mind not remove it. Remember if more than 3 groups of people are highlighting the same issue and over a period.. it cannot be because of bad spirit... there must be something.. investigate... God holds all of us accountable ..<br /><br />Remember total Obedience and Blind Loyalty to the leader regardless of their life is not a sign of a good christian. We can be sincere but sincerely wrong. You will ultimately be judged by what you choose to do.<br /><br />I think crucially, we have to answer to God for our action or inaction.<br /><br />Here are some signs that something is not right in the church, it is not exhaustive but it will at least cause an alarm in your mind to probe further.<br /><br /><br />1. When the church is bering evasive about their finances and do not have good transparency. Case in point BBK church. Good churches have transparent accounts where people can see anytime and have Salary package stated clearly... some churches actually inform their members the package of their pastor. - Salary and Benefits provided.. do you know yours??<br /><br />2. When people start living church not because they are backsliding but because of leadership issues. If just one group or a couple of people leave it is understandable, but when you see, different groups of people from the youth to the family starting to leave the church over a period of time. Then some alarm bells shoudl start ringing . Find out the issues. and see if there is a basis for their complain.<br /><br />3. The church is having turnover. Meaning there is alot of people come but also alot of people leaving, so the church never grow. numercially and if it is over a period of time .. from 1 yr to maybe 3 years.. then.. something is wrong somewhere. We need to ask why .<br /><br /><br />Early diagnosis... will hopefully prevent a similiar split again in Hope Movement. Remember members, our pastors life is in our hands.. we are all responsible to ensure the pastor's and the church well being.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-18814311005676815342009-11-09T06:01:00.001-08:002010-01-06T06:00:02.263-08:00Biblediscuss post for Ps StephenFor those who have asked me to post the english translation of the thai post by Ps Stephen. Unfortunately, there are only 55 post showing up in the forum even though 171 were posted by him.<br /><br />I have looked at the post and its just ordinary discussion. The other posts pertaining to PK letter and Rubina action were not found.<br /><br />So unless there is something unless there is something that needs translation i would just leave it for now.<br /><br />And FYI, there was a post I made someone which i had of the HGI eldership meeting discussion something to do with finance about Ps Stephen and also I believe something to do with flying. The note are somewhere in the blog and also in my files somewhere. I will repost it if i find it.<br /><br />In any case, I suppose just another case of Hope Bangkok Trained pastor. I think, the people in Perth would know more. Will leave it as that on my side.<br /><br />CiaoEagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com15tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-37155820281997894262009-11-07T16:45:00.000-08:002009-11-07T16:54:51.174-08:00Hope related videosHere is some youtube of PN. He is preaching in Nigeria and Ps Nimit from the other Camp...<br /><br /><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lTabi0uhl7Y&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lTabi0uhl7Y&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object><br /><br /><br /><object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RywXKC_0UvQ&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RywXKC_0UvQ&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-16719262521708798412009-11-06T08:39:00.000-08:002009-11-06T09:01:36.953-08:00The role of a pastorI have been reading the comments from my previous article about HIM pastor's going to Thailand and did not expect a topic generating from that article.<br /><br />From the comments, it does seems that people are not concerned with the going on in the particular HIM church. I must say, I did hear abit of news too, I do know from previous discussion on the biblediscuss.com which is used mainly by the Thai people.<br /><br />There was a heated debate regarding Ps PK letter to PN, and from the conversation I did thought he was on PN side. The Ps in question is a Hope Bangkok trained pastor through and through, the style and approach nevertheless would not differ much. As the concepts are picked from Hope Bangkok.<br /><br />In truth, not every Pastor are the same, not every HIM pastor thinks the same and will do the same thing. God made us all different. But I do think that one thing as Pastor we must always do is never first to blame the people for bad spirit but always check on ourselves when things go pear shaped.<br /><br />The problem with churches is that when people are not agreeable on certain issues, its not always bad spirit. Yes, there may be your occasion of few negative people.. BUT.. what if not just one or two are feeling the same. Then it cannot be the people, it should be the leader who needs a check, we can't say the whole world is wrong and I am right.<br /><br />The key is this, whatever church you are in.. when you start seeing people from students, profeesionals and even families that is voicing some concern about your stlye, It is time we need to start a careful on ourselves.<br /><br />To hid under the sand and pretend that the rest of the world is full of bad spirit people. Then we maybe living in denial. Therefore as a pastor, we hold more accountable in our actions because God mentions int he bible that HE who teaches are judge more severely.<br /><br />If this has been a problem in the church, i really hope the issues can be resolved and sorted out. Regardless, as Pastor we should set a better example not otherwise.<br /><br />Hopefully things will get better for those in the affected area.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com8tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-5894150726126145302009-10-29T08:17:00.000-07:002010-01-06T06:00:24.361-08:00Bible Conference in Thailand<div class="note_header"><div class="note_title_share clearfix"><div class="note_title"><span>The bible conference attended by 2 HIM speakers for our HIM churches in Bangkok<br /><br /><br />The Core - คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพระคัมภีร์</span></div> <div class="share_and_hide clearfix"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/ajax/share_dialog.php?s=4&appid=2347471856&p%5B%5D=141027471561&p%5B%5D=178230525725" rel="dialog" title="Send this to friends or post it on your profile." class="share share_a">Share</a></div></div><div class="byline"> Thursday, October 8, 2009 at 1:56pm</div></div> <div class="note_content text_align_ltr direction_ltr clearfix"> <div>แจ้งปรับกำหนดการเร็วขึ้น<br /><br />8.00 - 8.30 ลงทะเบียนเข้าอบรม<br /><span> 8.30 เริ่มอธิษฐานและเข้าสู่โปรแ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>กรมการอบรม<br /><br /><span> ขอให้พี่น้องทุกท่านที่เข้า</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>อบรม พยายามมาก่อนเวลา<br /><span> เนื่องจากจำนวนผู้เข้าอบรมใ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>นตอนนี้มีเพิ่มมากขึ้น<br />ที่นั่งอาจจะไม่เพียงพอได้<br /><br /><span> การมาก่อนเวลาจะทำให้ทีมงาน</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ได้จัดเตรียมอำนวยความสะดวก<br /><span> ในเรื่องที่นั่งการเข้าอบรม</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ให้พี่น้องได้ก่อนถึงเวลาจร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ิง<br /><br /><span> ขอพระเจ้าอวยพระพรพี่น้องทุ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>กท่านให้ได้รับพระพรสูงสุดจ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ากการอบรม<br /><span> "The Core-คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ตามพระคัมภีร์"<br /><br /><br /><span> --------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>--------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>--------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>--------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>----<br />เรียนเชิญ พี่น้องคริสเตียนทุกท่าน<br /><br /><span> เข้าร่วมงานสัมมนาพระคัมภีร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>์ ในหัวข้อที่น่าสนใจและสำคัญ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>มากๆสำหรับการดำเนินชีวิตคร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ิสเตียน<br /><br /><b><span>"คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ระคัมภีร์"</b><br />วันศุกร์ที่ 23 ตุลาคม 2009 นี้ เวลา 8.30 - 17.30<br />และวันอาทิตย์ ที่ 25 ตุลาคม 2009 เวลา 13.30 - 16.00 น.<br /><br />ณ คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา กรุงเทพ<br />อัตราค่าสมัคร 100 บาท<br /><br /></div><div class="photo photo_none"><div class="photo_img"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3810943&op=1&view=all&subj=178230525725&aid=-1&auser=0&oid=178230525725&id=141027471561"><img src="http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs260.snc1/10728_183228621561_141027471561_3810943_5418451_n.jpg" alt="" class="" onload="var img = this; onloadRegister(function() { adjustImage(img); });" /></a></div><div class="caption">Bangkok, The Core 2009, Oct 23<br /><span>" คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ะคัมภีร์ "</div></div><div class="clear_none"><br /><br /><span> วิทยากรรับเชิญจากต่างประเท</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ศ<br /><br /></div><div class="photo photo_none"><div class="photo_img"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3810944&op=1&view=all&subj=178230525725&aid=-1&auser=0&oid=178230525725&id=141027471561"><img style="width: 460px;" src="http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs280.snc1/10728_183229226561_141027471561_3810944_4917311_n.jpg" alt="" class="" onload="var img = this; onloadRegister(function() { adjustImage(img); });" /></a></div><div class="caption">Dr. Brendan Kirby</div></div><div class="clear_none"><br /><br />อ.ดร.เบรนดอน เคอบี้<br /><span> ดร.เบรนดอน เป็นนักวิทยาศาสตร์(ฟิสิกส์</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>) สังกัด กระทรวงกลาโหมของรัฐบาลออสเ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ตรเลียในปัจจุบัน<br />นอกจากเป็น ศบ.คจ.ที่อดิเลย์แล้ว ข้อมูลอื่นๆ ของท่านดังนี้<br /><br />Dr. Brendan Kirby is the pastor of church in Adelaide. Dr. Kirby was<br />born again in 1984. He joined in 1991 and started Church<br />in Adelaide in October 1998 with his wife Helen (whom he married in<br />1994). He overseas 7 churches in South Australia and Western<br />Australia (WA), and has been responsible for bringing some churches<br />in Liberia and in Democratic Republic of Congo into the Movement. He and Nigel<br />recently planted a church in Esperance. Brendan currently works<br />as a part time research scientist, 3 days a week, and serves as a<br />pastor in his remaining time.<br /><br /></div><div class="photo photo_none"><div class="photo_img"><a href="http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=3810950&op=1&view=all&subj=178230525725&aid=-1&auser=0&oid=178230525725&id=141027471561"><img style="width: 460px;" src="http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs280.snc1/10728_183229511561_141027471561_3810950_5664482_n.jpg" alt="" class="" onload="var img = this; onloadRegister(function() { adjustImage(img); });" /></a></div><div class="caption">Ps. Stephen Pitavanik</div></div><div class="clear_none"><br /><br />Pastor Stephen Pitavanik is the man of faith who has a strong vision to plant churches since year 1985. He has the gift of teaching the Word of God, in an expository manner. Through his ministry of teaching, God has transformed the hearts and lives of many.<br /><br />He is also highly recognised for laying clear foundations and principles of Christian doctrines in people’s lives and to the church. Under his leadership, many leaders have been raised up to serve God together in a great unity.<br /><br />He enjoys talking with people and makes them feel at home in the family of Perth. His pastoring heart shows to all in love and care for them holistically.<br /><br />Pastor Stephen is a caring father and husband to his family. He and with his wife, Hannah, alongside with their two children, Joseph and Benjung, set the great example in serving God together actively reiterates Joshua 24: 15b “As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”<br /><br /><span> อ.สิทธิพล ปีตะวนิค หรือ Pastor Stephen ในด้านการศึกษาพระวจนะ ท่านจบการศึกษาด้านศาสานศาส</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ตร์และการรับใช้ระดับปริญญา</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ตรีที่ Harvest West Bible College ณ เมืองเพิร์ธ ประเทศออสเตรเลีย และยังได้รับการอบรมหลักสูต</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>รต่างๆทางพระคัมภีร์จากหลาย</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>สถาบันในเพิร์ธ เช่น Riverview Bible College, Western Australian Bible College และสมัยเป็นผู้เชื่อใหม่ในป</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ี 1986 ได้เดินทางไปศึกษาพระคัมภีร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>์ที่รร.พระคริสต์ธรรม Tung Ling Bible College ประเทศสิงค์โปร์ หลังจากได้ศึกษาจบหลักสูตรเ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ตรียมผู้รับใช้จากประเทศไทย</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ในเวลานั้น ในด้านการรับใช้ อ.สตีเฟ่น มีประสบการณ์บุกเบิก และก่อตั้งคริสตจักรหลายแห่</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>งในประเทศไทย และต่างประเทศ ในประเทศไทยเช่นบุกเบิกคริส</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ตจักรในลำปาง สตูล หาดใหญ่ สุไหงโกลก เคยเป็นผู้นำดูแลกลุ่มคริสต</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>จักรในเจ็ดจังหวัดภาคใต้ของ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ประเทศไทย ปัจจุบันดำรงตำแหน่งเป็นศิษ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ยาภิบาล (Senior Pastor) คริสตจักร Perth Christian Church, Australia ท่านเป็นผู้มีของประทานในกา</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>รบุกเบิก วางรากฐานคริสตจักร และเทศนาเชิงอรรถาธิบาย โดยปรารถนาที่จะเห็นนิมิตรพ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ระมหาบัญชาขององค์พระเยซูคร</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>ิสต์สำเร็จในโลกในระยะเวลาอ</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>ันใกล้นี้<br /><br /><br />PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND :<br />1) Export Promotion Manager of President Agri Trading Co.,Ltd. Thailand (Saha PattanaPibul Interholding Group of Companies)<br />2) Export Consultant for many Plastic Bags Factories in Thailand)<br /><br /><br /><span> --------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>--------------------------</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>----------------------<br />คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา<br />(Church of Covenant)<br /><br /><span> อาคาร ชุมนุมสหกรณ์เครดิตยูเนี่ยน</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>แห่งประเทศไทย<br /><span> สถานที่ : ตั้งอยู่ระหว่างซอยรามคำแหง</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span> 100 และ 102<br />สุขาภิบาล 3<br />(ห้องประชุมใหญ่ชั้น 3)<br /><br />แผนที่ คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา กรุงเทพ<br /><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=110057703588806982978.00046c792e4068bae7473&ved=0CAkQnAUwAA&sa=X&ei=oJPNSsLGCZC6vAP87PnmCQ" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://maps.google.com/map</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>s/ms?msa=0&msid=1100577035</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>88806982978.00046c792e4068</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>bae7473&ved=0CAkQnAUwAA&sa</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>=X&ei=oJPNSsLGCZC6vAP87Pnm</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>CQ</a><br /><br />สอบถามข้อมูลเพิ่มเติม ได้ที่<br /><a href="http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/aucharavesarachkitti" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://churchcovenant.ning</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>.com/profile/aucharavesara</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>chkitti</a><br /><a href="http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/Luke" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://churchcovenant.ning</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>.com/profile/Luke</a><br /><a href="http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/chidarunteepjirungkul" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://churchcovenant.ning</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>.com/profile/chidarunteepj</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>irungkul</a><br /><a href="http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/VeerasakJitareesatian" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://churchcovenant.ning</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span><span>.com/profile/VeerasakJitar</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>eesatian</a><br /><br />ที่มา<br /><a href="http://www.churchofcovenant.com/" onmousedown="'UntrustedLink.bootstrap($(this)," target="_blank" rel="nofollow"><span>http://www.churchofcovenan</span><wbr><span class="word_break"></span>t.com</a></div></div>Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com30tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-56694992706921934162009-10-29T07:52:00.001-07:002009-10-29T08:16:46.959-07:00A change is happening in BangkokYes, I have been told that it seems one thing good that came out of this split with Hope Bangkok and the big issue in Bangkok is that, I think God is trying to relight the fire in Bangkok, where once there was only Hope Church dominating the Thailand scene, this split have helped created many neutral churches that i believe will only be Good for Thailand.<br /><br />No matter how PN and Dr.J try to get back those churches that split from the movement, i believe this move is caused by the hand of God. Hope as a movement was getting too big and too many bureaucracies and efficient management of both financial and human resources. So instead of one Big church under Dr. Kriengsak and Ps PN from Hope Bangkok, God had allowed this split so that more leaders can rise up from within Bangkok.<br /><br />As of today, there are many new churches breaking from Hope Movement under both Hope Church in Bangkok.<br /><br />A close in bangkok told me that we have HIM pastors now going to the bible conference happening currently in Bangkok. And a number of new churches have decided to join under HIM wings, but will remain autonomous. I believe the new one is called Church of Convenant. I just read it on their website. http://www.churchofcovenant.com/<br /><br /><br />Its mostly in thai but they have a link to HIM website...<br /><br /><br />Well bible says, what devil meant to destroy, God will use it for his work.<br /><br />I believe God will open up Bangkok as more churches sprout up and pastors start to take the lead. And hopefully those training they receive will help them build stronger churches in Bangkok<br /><br />Hope Hong Kong I think has decided to be independent. Still I believe we are all one big family. May God also help them build something in Hong Kong. I did not see their name in the HIM blog and from my source, they might decided to be independent.<br /><br />** I dont know but it seems that PN is still going to many countries to preach, i think recently to Africa. Well. that i wont comment.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-16234736855344829892009-10-26T22:23:00.000-07:002009-10-26T22:24:52.453-07:00An article - Church Horror StoriesBelow is a recent article posted by one commentator<br /><br />A church horror story<br /><br />Q. I've been curious about what your take on my current situation would be. My family has been attending a new church for about ten months. We don't agree with some of the pastor's teachings (I've been down the "works" path and refuse to go back) but we are there mainly to give our children a church family as they have many friends in our homeschooling community who go to that church. I feel I get my spiritual nourishment from many different places and I didn't have a problem not getting "fed" at "church" so to speak.<br /><br />Well, a few months ago during a camping trip it came out that I didn't agree with everything the pastor said. I tried to downplay it because this is a small, close knit church. I knew from my past church experiences that there was no sense in expressing my differences to church leadership because they would not change. They worship their pastor and believe what he says is not to be questioned.<br /><br />After Bible study Wednesday night the pastor asked me to stay behind and everyone left. There was just the pastor, another man and me (my husband was not there that night). The pastor told me that I needed to decide if he was going to be my spiritual teacher. He used Hebrews 13:17 to tell me that I needed to obey him -- that even if I disagreed with him I needed to trust him. And if I did disagree, I needed to be quiet about it.<br /><br />A couple of weeks earlier he had given a sermon (directed at me) about how there was someone in the group who didn't agree with what was being taught and who was causing problems. He said that "this person" needs to repent.<br /><br />Responding to his interrogation on Wedensday night, I told the pastor I really didn't look at him as my spiritual mentor, although I loved and respected him and his walk with the Lord. I didn't say anything negative. I told him I didn't think it was a problem for people to discuss what they believe or discuss other scriptural viewpoints -- because "iron sharpens iron." But he made it very clear that Hebrews 13:17 commands me to come "under him" and to be quiet. He said that he does not want division in his church. He also advised me to stop listening to sermons from other pastors and teachers so that I wouldn't get confused. I told him I didn't feel confused at all. God is HUGE to me and doesn't fit into any box. I love what God is doing in everyone's life and I love learning and growing. I don't want to be limited to one man's teaching.<br /><br />I wasn't hurt by what he said, though it was painful to sit there -- he was a coward in my book to not talk to my husband and me together. I was, however, hurt by how the people in the church knew what was going on, and I didn't. When my kids asked where I was, the church leaders' kids told my kids I was getting kicked out of the church. These were supposed to be my friends.<br /><br />This whole episode is actually quite comical except for the fact that I have five young kids who are hurting on the inside because they will not be able to hang out with their friends anymore. What a mess for a testimony of Christian love. I later found out that one family had told their kids not to talk to mine -- but the kids did anyway when the parents weren't around.<br /><br />So, with all that said, what do you think about my "submitting" to the pastor? By the way, obviously, I'm not going back. I don't think it's healthy for my kids to be under that kind of leadership. Yet part of me wants to go back and apologize to the people if they thought I was trying to cause a problem. That was truly not my intent.<br /><br />Thanks for your input, Greg. I always enjoy your answers and respect your interpretation.<br /><br />A. I guess I should not be shocked when I hear reports such as yours. After all, I know it's happening, so how can I be surprised? You ask for my input. Here goes. Your relationship with God is being damaged. God is being misrepresented to you. From what you have said about this situation, I can see nothing for which you should apologize.<br /><br />If more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.<br /><br />Leave. Don't go back. Nothing at all, in terms of a relationship with a brick and mortar church (church attendance, activities, outings, camping trips, church "friendships" -- etc.) is better than what you describe. Stay at home if need be -- if more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.<br /><br />I know about this kind of authoritarianism and the lasting impact it usually has on our relationship with God. I experienced a similar kind of manipulation and brow-beating, guilt trips, and transfers of blame -- for many years. I and many others who existed in that particular religious swamp were told, when we didn't agree with religious authorities, that we were in "bad attitudes" -- and when we expressed disagreement we were told that we weren't being "loyal" (to a human being!). When and if we failed to conform to legalistic practice one of the ultimate clubs was to be told that our "conversion" was questionable.<br /><br />And of course, when all else failed, there was blazing hot hell fire that awaited us, because we couldn't be obedient to God (that is, God as perverted and corrupted by religion). I lived through such religious oppression, thinking that I was the problem. I experienced such mind games at the hands of authorities who, to the best of my knowledge, were sincere. They were of course way off base -- way wrong -- but sincere. Deceived and messed up, and doing their best to mess up everyone to whom they "ministered" and "served." Your pastor may also be completely sincere -- but he is sincerely wrong.<br /><br />Sad to say, I became a religious authority in the same religious context, and inflicted the same rules, regimens and regulations -- the same atmosphere of fear and shame, of intimidation and bullying. Thinking it was what God wanted, I dished up the same kind of religious propaganda and lies on others. Many of my friends who knew me back then, and who continue to exist within a similar religious world view, believe that I am overstating the reality of what I and many others experienced back then. I believe that they, for a variety of reasons, are unable to deal with the truth of what happened to them and what they themselves participated in -- and thus they live in some degree of denial. I thank God for his gracious deliverance from religion -- for myself, for many people I know, and for many people I serve. I thank God that it seems that you too understand something seems to be horribly wrong in this church you have been attending.<br /><br />Once again, the sincerity of your pastor and your friends is not the issue. Most of them, perhaps all of them, are doing what they believe to be "right." But by God's grace you seem to know it's not right at all. You mention that some of your friends "worship" the pastor -- when that dynamic is present it can give that human leader carte blanche, and eventually a person given that kind of reverence, whether politically, religiously, on the job or in the family, will become somewhat convinced that they are above and beyond the run of the mill people they ostensibly "serve." Worship of a pastor, however worship may be defined, is a huge danger sign.<br /><br />Don't put up with this kind of treatment. Many who realize something is very wrong continue to allow such un-Christ-like behavior, in the context of a church, somewhat like a battered spouse will make excuses for his/her spouse who is physically and emotionally abusing them. The abused person will think they can change the abusive party. The abused person will talk about the "good times" when the abuse is not happening. The abused person will make excuses for the perpetrator, justifying him or her.<br /><br />Women in particular find themselves in a difficult place when adult male spiritual leaders play the submission card. It's often the trump card, used to bring the "rebellious" woman back into line. And, ganging up on a woman when her husband is not present?!?! Religion is all about control.<br /><br />My question is simple: I challenge religious legalism to please demonstrate and explain how Jesus is all about control. He is the polar opposite! This doesn't mean Jesus is a wimp -- it does mean Jesus gives us choices. He does not chain us to the church pews to make sure we attend every week! May God give you the wisdom and courage to take the steps you need. May his grace and peace be with you. My prayers are with you.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com14tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-59404689180066007762009-10-25T03:23:00.000-07:002009-10-25T03:36:21.580-07:00Almost 1 yr on to Hope Movement SplitIt almost now 1yr to the time our Hope Movement was split because of Dr.Joseph and PN action in the Hope Movement. And from that time until there was a number of big changes.<br />HGI was renamed to HIM now led by Ps Simon, Hope Bangkok Church was split with PN leading one side and Rubina leading the other. Some other churches as well split from Hope and have remained such.<br /><br />In HIM, we are still refining and changing some of the old Hope issues that have plagued the movement. From all the comments i have read, there are still pockets of Hope elements which are still there. I suppose its always hard to do wholesale changes and no doubt Hope's previous teaching will still have some impact especially those trained in Hope Thailand or have been very closely related to the Hope Church in Bangkok.<br /><br />In summary issues that needs dealing with<br /><br />1. BGR issues that have always been very poorly dealt with<br /><br />2. Pride attitude always assuming we are the best<br /><br />3. Poor people management skills by the leaders<br /><br />4. Poor leadership training and selection of leadership based on favourtism rather than by lifestyle<br /><br />5. Teachings and methods sometimes bodering on cultish behaviour<br />- Leaders telling members what to do<br />- People who leave church are often ostracised and cut off<br /><br />6. Leadership often blaming people using the term "Bad spirit" instead of taking responsiblity.<br /><br />Whatever 1 yr from now if this things still happen its anyone's guest. But i believe many people who are reading this or left will have stories which can relate to one of these points.<br /><br />Hopefully HIM can take a bigger role in changing the old Hope Philosophy. Well, Happy Annivesary.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com11tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3863592448044721647.post-14540593379696312742009-10-12T06:26:00.000-07:002009-10-12T06:33:57.658-07:00New HIM website and Hope BangkokYes, it is up and running.. the HIM website. I have placed a link. If you are interested its there.<br /><br />Just a quick update..Thailand Situation<br /><br />The thailand situation is still very much... all over. There is still alot of movement and I believe some Thai churches would want to join HIM movement.<br /><br />PN church is apparently doing pretty well, He was recently invited to i think Africa to speak... mmmmm.. i wonder if the international organisation know what is happening. Unfortunately from what i undertand people in PN church refuse to believe that PN committed adultery even though there is evidence of his infidelity.<br /><br />Its sad that Hope Bangkok Church people would be so blinded by loyalty that they would not investigate the claim futher.<br /><br />I am not too sure how HIM will deal with PN and the Hope link. The problem is that we stil use Hope and all those who broke from Hope still retain the name. I can only say it will surely cause more confusion.<br /><br />I had hope in the future we will have a new name.. maybe call New Hope... to break from the past. I know PN is planning to send people overseas to plant church and you can imagine the confusion it will create.<br /><br />But.. its my opinion. A name is still a name... as long the truth is out in the open.<br /><br />I really dont know how to convince the thai bro and sister who just follow blindly.. i suppose only God knows.Eagle_eyehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02685938526380780215noreply@blogger.com18