Thursday, September 10, 2009

HIM Questions answered

As for those wondering about HIM, I believe Ps Simon is the president for HIM. At present from my understanding, the structure is pretty much the same, which means I believe there will be some inner core eldership which I believe is the directors for the different region.
The new HIM website should reveal more the leadership structure. As for accountability, I am still unsure who we account to. I know there is still a lot of re-structuring to be done. And I know it will take time.
Beyond that, I do think its still too early to tell what the new impetus would be and how things will be done. I am not sure if there is going to be wholesale change.
I read many comments from people, regarding pastor’s still keeping to the old ways of Hope. I really hope that things do change.
Anyway, like I have mentioned before Hope’s biggest failing is its failure to put principles into practical day to day use. That is why even PN and Dr.J themselves are burned out leading them to commit sin and refusing to acknowledge it.

The worst thing that could happen is HIM not learning from the go-go style of the previous Hope Movement. I think if we do our maths properly, Hope style approach to running a church destroys more Christian life then building them up

Some stats to consider – If what Hope Bangkok say is correct in the last 20 yrs assuming that they will have an average of just 100 converts every week. That would mean there should be 104000 new Christians entering the Kingdom of God,

I wonder what is the real retention rate, it is sad to think that for every 100 people saved maybe only 3 or 5 will make the distance



20 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Eagle_Eye,

Yes, this is a very important question as to who is running HIM at the moment. And the fact that the information is not readily available is not very good. It has been 4-5 months now since HIM was established and we still don't have any names as to who are the leaders. I believe that it was the leadership structure and style that lead to HOG's downfall. And if it is still being carried on, then it will not be good. It needs to be addressed immediately.

Some very big churches I know purposely pick it's eldership from the congregation who are not working full-time in the church. Of course the qualifications of eldership have to be met. This is so that there is more accountability and the senior pastor is also answerable to them. The administration of the church etc. is done by full-time people who are also high in the leadership but they are not the elders.

Hope is run in a very top-down approach ie. the top leaders are the elders and also the administrators ie. very few people at the top. This is good for moving the church quickly but it can also be very dangerous as the top people can collude together as was seen in Hope Bangkok.

The international model of leadership also takes after the Bangkok model at the church level and also at the movement level. I believe all these needs to be changed if they want to make it more accountable.

At the moment, I believe that not even knowing who are the leaders and elders of HIM is not acceptable.

A concerned person.

Watcher said...

Hi all,

I believe many of us by now would have known that Ps Simon is the new president of HIM. Since the founding of the Hope movement by Kriengsak, its principles of leadership and and how the nature of the church is based much on the Church Growth movment, in which fast and rapid evangelisation coupled with the use of various techniques, such as seeker-sensitve methods, to rope in large number of 'converts'. However, in the name of accomplishing converts through numbers, speed and efficiency have thrown the importance of taking time to nurture believers.

It is the ideal case that everyone in the church are truly born again and regenerate Christians. But how can we be sure that just because we have large numbers of visible ppl in church, we would definitely have that equal number of believers? Were many of the weekly '100 converts' converted due to the what they like in the church, i.e., close fellowship, ministries for me to work in to give myself worth,ministries to be involved in to change society according to Christian values,good church music and zeal of the church? How many truly believe in their hearts that Christ rose from the dead and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord? How many are truly repentant of their sins and realise they need to believe in Jesus our Saviour for the forgivenss of their sins? Having 100 ppl down at the altar at the close of the service to 'receive Jesus' just by uttering the sinners prayer (some ppl may outwardly behave religiously and say out the sinners prayer without understanding the real meaning of confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord) does not mean that those 100 are truly converted to Christ. Sad to say,many think of conversion in such a setting. Perhaps that is why, as Eagle Eye hypothetically put it,only 3-5 ppl will truly last. These few ppl will last because they truly have been regenerated and converted, and God will grant them the strength to persevere to the end.

As for leadership, I am not a leader, so I can't really comment much. There are many variations in church governance throughout christendom. I can only comment that whatever leadership structure that will evolve out of the ashes of the tragic events of Hope movement, it must not be a hierarchy of 'priests' that sets itself up as if they are the interermediary between God and believers (to know its destructive, just need to look at the medieval prieest system of the Roman Catholic Church which Reformers rejected). The leadership must not think of itself as morally spiritually more superior than the non-leaders. Likewise, they must not equate their words and their interpretation of the word of God as if they are the very words of God (leaders must stear away from the notion that their words are ex-cathedra). Only the Holy Scriptures can bind the conscience of the believers.

Kriengsak and PN started off well. They began by the grace of God but after that they went to back into bondage again by birthing a movement that is so works and performance based. Unless and until the message of the Gospel gets etched into the heart of Hope movement, the haunting spectre of the consequences of works-based righteousness would once again surface itself.

Regards,
Watcher

Anonymous said...

Yes, I do agree with you Eagle_Eye. The 100 people saved a week at Hope Bangkok is only a number which unfortunately did not translate into people who have stayed on in the church. It then begs the question as to what happened to the 100 or so people who made a decision all these years.

1. They were coerced into making a decision either by peer pressure or emotion and they did not really mean it.

2. They meant it but they did not like the pressure and so went to another church.

3. They meant it and stayed on.

Looks like most of them were in groups 1 and 2 - hopefully 2 so that at least they still have a personal relationship with Jesus and still going to church.

There is a journey that every person goes through when they first come to know Jesus. Their commitment level must be slowly nurtured so that they themselves come to know Jesus personally. The more they know Jesus, the stronger their commitment level. Sometimes you cannot rush things and push people to do the 20 lessons and then become a shepherd and then a CL and so on. Their commitment and relationship level with Jesus may not have reached that stage yet and they are only doing it because they have been coerced into it or because their friends are doing it. In the end, you are only build shallow Christians who cannot last the test of time and trials.

Billy Graham says on average it takes a person 7 times to hear the gospel before they believe. It's a journey and the same with a Christian's commitment level.

It's no surprise that the Hope style of doing things in a hurry leads to a negative result in the long run.

I agree with Watcher's assessment and comments as well.

ex-member said...

This is only an opinion and suggestion.

I think that the HIM should not be formed that hastily and the local churches should each go their own way for now. At least for the time being.

Why?

To detach from this Hope saga where each local pastor/church can take time to reflect and access their church spiritual health and condition.

This period will also allow local churches to form their own identity as a church and strengthen their leadership.

If there's anything that we can learn from the saga is that local leaders were too dependent on the leadership of founder and PN to form their identity and direction as a church.

What Hope BKK do, the other churches follow.

Reacting by forming HIM will not help much just as what we are observing now. E.g. structure is the same, system the same, open communications and creativity remain at the same low level etc...

Coming together probably feels like the right thing to do because size does matter and can feel secure.

But if we are thinking long term, we need to 'separate' first. This will also not allow the current Hope movement of PN leadership to say anything accusing of rebellion against HIM.

However, the local pastors can still meet up regularly to update on the health and reformative phase. Alliances can also be formed for cross-cultural missions.

Maybe after an agreed deadline (1 or 2yrs), then leaders can meet again to decide next course of action whether to officially start HIM.

In this manner, more ground work could be done in setting up the soft and hard infrastructure of HIM. This will give HIM more credibility and vote of confidence from members especially after the saga.

And more importantly, this will allow the any excess baggage to be dealt with before marrying together.

Each church will have its own set of baggage. So all coming together will form one big baggage. More difficult to deal with.

Watcher said...

Hi all,

This is the last entry which I will write for this blog by Eagle Eye. This blog has been very useful for many people who wanted to find out what happened in the Hope of God movement. Many views have been shared. Some were very informative and enjoyable to read. Some were written to express their opinions in very strong words that this blog should not continue, that we should let the matter rest. I confess at various times I have written my comments out of a frustration against the bad experiences I've experienced in Hope. Sometimes I really desire seeing comments attacking Hope. I confess at times I too am a man who face hatred against the movement I was raised up in. Honestly,there were times when I wrote many comments out of a heart to get back at those who hurt me. I have sinned against the Lord and I desire to repent of it. May the Lord have mercy on me.

Having said that,what I've commented on this blog are alos truly out of what I realise to be true expressions of Christianity. The truth about us being justified by grace of God through Christ alone (and not by works and peformance), the importance of biblical sanctification and giveing time for believers to grow,the need to revise the shepherding system,the parity of all believers and the need to throw away the hierarchical system, and so on. I have written these things based on my own self-reflection, reading of the bible and scholarly works written by credible Pastors and theologians. And I have written in an irenic manner so as to promote constructive discussions. Eagle Eye, ex-member, ex-hope and many others have written well and responsibly to avoid quarrels but to promote constructive discussion as well.

JF, if what I have written have offended you, I apologise, for that is not my intent. I believe that in the eyes of some people, "Watcher"is just a person who causes division. I am sure they would quote from the passages from the book of Romans that ppl like me should be ignored. I understand there will be some people who would say,"Since Watcher and the others are no longer in Hope,why are they still talking about such issues? They should instead talk to their leaders and shepherd to ge their clarificaiton and not speculate behind ppls back.Surely Watcher and company are out to get at us and they should be stopped." I agree to some extent that I do not really have the right to discuss such issues outside the covering of Hope movement. Thus, I have decided not to write anymore comments on Hope. I can only hope that my brothers and sisters in Hope can really take time to reflect about the teachings they have received and test it by the authority of Scripture, for Scripture is the only infallible and ultimate authority to which we must turn to for doctrine and practice. Let not the priniciple of Sola Scriptura be lost. I urge my brothers and sisters in Hope to re-examine their own lives, the teachings they have received according to God's word.. Ask yourself why do we serve,to please our peers, to prove our worth before God, or truly to love God and serve our neighbours. Remember that we should have the courage to discuss doctrinal issues within the church. My brothers and sisters in Hope, please, do spend time with your leaders and discuss important. We need to put aside falsehood and speak truthfully to one another.

To JF, hopefully, your desire to see that ppl move on from this incident will come to pass. You mentioned that this blog does not build up christians. I am not very sure what you mean by this statement. I only hope that this blog will not incite hate but lead to heathly discussion.

My parting words are: May the Lord open up the eyes of our brothers and sisters in Hope movement!!!

May the grace of God and His Son Jesus Christ be with you all, Amen.

Regards,
Watcher

ex-hope said...

Hey Watcher,

I hope that you'll continue to post. We're here, not just to talk about Hope, we're also here to build the body of Christ. I'm sure people from other churches can learn a thing or two from this. We all should grow together. Your intentions may have skewed a little, but we ain't perfect. We are after all humans with emotions. It's like I'll get passionate when I talk about helping the poor. I'll get emotional. I'll get fired up. I saw a clip yesterday at a christian concert of the child sex trade in the Philippines. And my heart filled with anger. It's because we have the righteous one in us that gives us that fire for justice. So I really do hope that we will continue to see input from you. I believe you can turn frustraion to positive action.

Orel said...

Hi everyone, please be patient (and endure long-suffering if necessary). We must understand it was a huge step for Ps Simon to post his detailed statement on 16 July for the world to read. He would have prayerfully considered the implications, weighed up the pros and cons associated with "going public" and made the decision in consultation with trustworthy counselors.

Even the most ardent critic of past practices should admit it was a significant step in the right direction.

Disagreement with DJ and PN was "pastoral suicide" not too long ago. You can be assured that disagreement with Ps Simon is not "pastoral suicide" today.

Although I've long departed from Hope (and am not in HIM), please be assured that Ps Simon is trustworthy will do his sincere best. I've observed him from close quarters for more than a decade and he is the correct choice to lead HIM right now.

We will know a good tree by its fruit and time will be a good test.

Have a blessed day wherever you are.

Orel said...

Hi Eagle_Eye,

Assuming Wikipedia has got it right in describing "burnout" as a psychological term for "the experience of long-term exhaustion and diminished interest" then I query if it is the best term to describe DJ's and PN's current condition.

On the other hand I would agree that the 12 "burnout phases" described in Wikipedia have similar characteristics to the symptoms manifested by those who chose to do it "in their own strength":

A compulsion to prove oneself
Working harder
Neglecting one's own needs
Displacement of conflicts (the person does not realize the root cause of the distress)
Revision of values (friends or hobbies are completely dismissed)
Denial of emerging problems (cynicism and aggression become apparent)
Withdrawal (reducing social contacts to a minimum, becoming walled off; alcohol or other substance abuse may occur)
Behavioral changes become obvious to others
Inner emptiness
Depression
Burnout syndrome

And ultimately the issue of burnout is of concern where recognition and prestige were bestowed primarily on the perceived "high achievers".

Hope/HIM has a wonderful vision from the Lord, some meaningful tweaks to the modus operandi will ensure long term sustainability.

JesuaFreak said...

Watcher,

when i mentioned that this blog does not build pple, coz all i see everywhere is pple picking a bone with hope and its failures...

where are the stories which pple are built up and encouraged. where are the stories of the lives that were changed week in ; week out?

as a brother in christ, i spoke my heart out to pple who left the faith. I do my darnest to pull them back to the Church of God. In my 16 yrs of walk, i do realise that not all churches suit all persons. i also reccomend pple to try an find that church that suits them.

Many times, pple leave Hope or rather church with deeper root issues like anger, hatred or dissatisfaction.

Hence its isnt Hope, but themselves.

They will face the same problem over and over again unless they overcome it.

I firmly believe in this.

WEll.. you can always email me and we chat there. i dun want to talk too much here liaos.

And What my heart desires is Jesus to come back and may all my friends and family all see each other in heaven.

thats my heart desire.

Watcher said...

Hi JesuaFreak,

I understand that you are very concerned that this blog will turn out to be one in which ppl may use it for picking on Hope. I certainly hope that it will not turn out that way. Thus I share the same concerns as you are.

I am quite sure that you are rather upset that ppl keep on talking more about the failures rather than the good that has taken place in the church. I cetainly believe that there are good testimonies to share. I can share the good things but that would take another posting to discuss the good testimonies I do not question the zeal of my fellow brothers and sisters. To have zeal is important. But if this zeal, even our testimonies, does not have the gospel as our basis, then testimonies, even good ones, would have to be seriously questioned. Of course, we must bear good testimony with our transformed lives. But if our "good testimony" does NOT contain that most wonderful testimony of what Jesus has done for us on as He died on the cross, but rather how much "I" have changed, we would in the end seek to glorify ourselves. In the end, we would seek to justify ourselves through our own works clothed as "good testimonies". Then again, I am not saying there are not genuine and good tesimonies in Hope. What I am saying is that no matter which church we are from, we must steer away from from focusing on how "good we are" compared to when before saved. Rather we must give glory to God for "how good He is" for saving us and transforming our lives even though we do not deserve it. The main aim of this blog is to point out areas that could be improved and changed. There are a few people who have tried to write as objectively as possible in this blog. And I hope that in any discussions, that writers write as responsibly as possible.

You mentioned that his blog does not build ppl up. I too also cannot answer this question in the definitive. If someone were to press me for an answer, I would say an affirmative because this blog has allowed us to understand to certain extent about the importance of justification by grace through faith in Christ alone and the need to turn away from works-based righteousness to grace, the need to modify the shepherding system, the need for grace to bring change in our lives, the need to bring glory to God in our different callings rather than fitting everyone into the same mould, the nature of sanctification, the importance of parity in the church of God, etc. These are all biblical truths that have been shared by various writers of this blog. We spoke about these issues because many of us have encountered false doctrines and faulty practices.If there has been unbiblical or unedifying things that have been mentioned, please share so that writers would avoid writing such unedifiying stuff. While there have been times in which various personnel have crafted emotional blogs, that is understandable as many of them have been hurt deeply in the past.

Watcher said...

Hi JesuaFreak,

This brings me to the next point. I agree that some ppl left Hope because of anger, dissatisfaction, and hatred. If these issues are not resolved, not matter where they go, they will still face the same issues. Thus, it is likely that it is themselves, not the church they left that was responsible. However, when you mentioned "many" left because of the earlier reason you mentioned, how are you so certain to the extent that you believe in it? Alternatively, I truly believe that there are also some ppl who left Hope because of true hurt they were inflicted with from the practices, doctrines, and ppl in Hope. As to whether "many" ppl have left because of the alternative reason I give, I cannot tell for sure. I believe both reasons given by us are valid. I do not wish to put blame on anyone, so I will refrain any further about this issue.

I fully agree with you that not all churches suit all persons. i would also reccomend pple to try an find that church that suits them. Hence, that is why I am in another church already. And I am glad in the church I am in now. I hope that the Spirit of God speaking through the Scriptures would lead us to the right church. In fact, I left my church I came from because I witnessed it being held captive to gnostic influence. If it is in God's will, I would devote myself to theological work, to educate Christians in sound catechism filled with true doctrines from the Bible, so that by the power of the Spirit they may live holy lives and steer away from wrong teachings. In the future, if I intend to write a book or a work, I would desire to write good works that seeks refute errors. I would do my best, by God's grace, to contend strongly for the faith, as encouraged in the epistle of Jude. With this, I hope to follow in the footsteps of Augustine, the church father who would later write many apologetical writings to refute the erros he so readily embrace before he was wonderfully converted to Christ.

My heart also goes out to those who have left the faith. I also hope that none of them would be snatched out of the hands of Jesus. I also hope that they could turn back from their apostasy and return to faith in Christ, and may God grant them the grace to perservere to the end.

Finally, I hope, as you do as well, that we avoid engaging in any blogs that seek to tear down ppl.

Cheers,
Watcher

J said...

JesuaFreak,

You mentioned about "when i mentioned that this blog does not build pple, coz all i see everywhere is pple picking a bone with hope and its failures..."

and

"Many times, pple leave Hope or rather church with deeper root issues like anger, hatred or dissatisfaction. Hence its isnt Hope, but themselves. They will face the same problem over and over again unless they overcome it"

While you are entitled to your own opinions, the part about your comments about people leaving Hope having deeper root issues, etc are uncalled for, without any basis or whatsoever, and is ironically not edifying as well to these people who left, nor building these people up.

What do you know about these people who left? How sure are you that the reasons which they leave are due entirely to their own faults and issues? How sure are you that the leaders in Hope are totally blameless? What if these people really have a legitimate ground for their grievances and there is an actual failing on the part from Hope leaders?

Given the uncertainly of such issues, I don't think that you as a fallible man, who with limited information should make such a statement. Especially given such a culture in Hope, whereby such things are usually kept a secret.

The fact is that in this blog, people had already given their part of the stories and what they had experienced with Hope leaders. You cannot deny these facts, unless you really mean that these people are lying.

As a good brother-in-Christ, which you claimed to be, I think that you ought to apologise for your comments about the other brothers and sisters who have left Hope.

J said...

JesuaFreak,

Just as an illustration - Would you rather me be saying this as a brother-in-Christ to you?

"Historically, pple had left Hope or rather church due to bad experiences with the Hope leaders and the church practices.

Hence it's isn't these people, but Hope Church itself.

The leaders in Hope will face the same problem over and over again unless they change.

I firmly believe in this."

My point is simply this - there are contributing factors to people leaving Hope, both push and pull factors. We should learn to open up our eyes to see things from both perspectives, from the Hope leaders' perspectives and from those who left, determine for ourselves whose points are valid accordingly to the WOG and stand firmly and strongly for our convictions (which is based on real, accurate and comprehensive information, not on what just the leaders said or raw zeal)

J said...

JesuaFreak,

We appreciate if instead of making generalised statement about

"when i mentioned that this blog does not build pple, coz all i see everywhere is pple picking a bone with hope and its failures... "

we would appreciate if you can refute what you deem is untruth, unbiblical about the contents of the postings in this blog. Present your case in facts and biblical principles why you deem that the hope system and ways of doing things is to be persevered despite its failings as mentioned by other bloggers. This would be more constructive and building up one another in faith, rather than appealing to us not to state about the bad things that happened and connecting it to not being edifying to people.

There should not be such a connection at all. The truth is bad things do happen to people, even to people who are in church.

Roms 8:28 - "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,who have been called according to his purpose."

God wills for "pain and suffering" to believers, so that there could be a refining effect. At the end of the day, God would be the most pleased if all of us, those who had left Hope and the Hope leaders have learned from their mistakes and changed for the better. That's the aim of this blog, not just an avenue of "ventilating" our grievances.

Please read all the postings and comments before giving such statements in order to be edifying to all the brothers and sisters.

Thanks!

J said...

Hello JesuaFreak,

Are you there? Have you decided not to response to my comments?

JesuaFreak said...

HI..

Firstly i dun monitor this blog regularly coz i rss-ed it.

Secondly like i said before, you can email me instead of continuing if u really want my answer.. haha.. lolx

Anyhows.. if you really keen to find out more from me.. kindly drop me an email..i have a profile on blogger and my email is listed.. unlike most pple here.. haha.. i can take this offline and online..

Your replies are too long.. i need some time to reply u..

JesuaFreak said...

While you are entitled to your own opinions, the part about your comments about people leaving Hope having deeper root issues, etc are uncalled for, without any basis or whatsoever, and is ironically not edifying as well to these people who left, nor building these people up.
What do you know about these people who left?

Those who left that I personally know; I know.
How sure are you that the reasons which they leave are due entirely to their own faults and issues?
Like I said, those that I know, I know and I have spoken my share. To them.
How sure are you that the leaders in Hope are totally blameless?
You mean you doubt the leaders ? of whom God appted ? or u generally is a doubtful person?
Do u take lifts by running to the top floor to check if the cables are checked ?
Do you check on the maintenance records daily before u step in?
Do you ask for the pilot credentials and the aircraft maintenance records before u step onboard?
Bro, if the guy is chosen as a leader, its’s God’s leading.
Obey it and have faith that whom God appts, there is a reason.
What if these people really have a legitimate ground for their grievances and there is an actual failing on the part from Hope leaders?
In my years with Hope, I’ve seen leaders who desperately try to keep members from leaving and use their own spare time to meet up and try to retain these pple.. not for numbers sake but for the sake of the Kingdom. And your questions is ‘wotif’, lemme ask u back “wotif these pple actually have no grievences and there is no actual falling on the part from Hope leaders?” There’s no end to this. REALLY
Come on.. what grievance? If there’s a real grievance, pple would have spoken up and the church would have known. get real , J or whoever you r. ( apologies here I cant seem to address u properly as you r an anonymous poster)
Given the uncertainly of such issues, I don't think that you as a fallible man, who with limited information should make such a statement. Especially given such a culture in Hope, whereby such things are usually kept a secret.
Deut 29:29
And I never said I ish infallible.. and nope, I personally believe that Hope is the most open and transparent church around. SERIOUSLY. At least for Singapore.

JesuaFreak said...

The fact is that in this blog, people had already given their part of the stories and what they had experienced with Hope leaders. You cannot deny these facts, unless you really mean that these people are lying.
Have you actually met these pple and delved deeper into their stories… nope I dun tink they’re lying.. but I tink there are always multi facets to 1 truth.. apart from the gospel.. Problem is how much of the truth do you know? Or u take things at just face-value ?

As a good brother-in-Christ, which you claimed to be, I think that you ought to apologise for your comments about the other brothers and sisters who have left Hope.
I claim to be a brother in Christ.. I never said I m a good Christian or a good guy. And opinions are like noses.. everyone has one. And I have mine..
Just as an illustration - Would you rather me be saying this as a brother-in-Christ to you?

"Historically, pple had left Hope or rather church due to bad experiences with the Hope leaders and the church practices.

Hence it's isn't these people, but Hope Church itself.

The leaders in Hope will face the same problem over and over again unless they change.

I firmly believe in this."

You can state an opinion. But be prepared to be proven wrong.
Technically leaders are hoomans. Hoomans make mistake(s).
Refer to apple adam eve and serpent.
My point is simply this - there are contributing factors to people leaving Hope, both push and pull factors. We should learn to open up our eyes to see things from both perspectives, from the Hope leaders' perspectives and from those who left, determine for ourselves whose points are valid accordingly to the WOG and stand firmly and strongly for our convictions (which is based on real, accurate and comprehensive information, not on what just the leaders said or raw zeal)

Hence I m saying you r not looking at the whole truth… BTW I like raw zeal.. coz it is powerful.. look at the disciples after experiencing the empowerment fo the Holy Spirit.. Man, they can take on the world.
we would appreciate if you can refute what you deem is untruth, unbiblical about the contents of the postings in this blog. Present your case in facts and biblical principles why you deem that the hope system and ways of doing things is to be persevered despite its failings as mentioned by other bloggers. This would be more constructive and building up one another in faith, rather than appealing to us not to state about the bad things that happened and connecting it to not being edifying to people.

I dun really have time to go into the semantics with you.
Contact your local Hope church pastor.
They’re mostly fulltime and willing to do it with you. =)
BTW happened is past tense..wot does the Word tell you abt letting go, bro? =)
There should not be such a connection at all. The truth is bad things do happen to people, even to people who are in church.
I agree with this. Bad things happen to good pple too. But we learnt 1thess 5:18, din we ?
God wills for "pain and suffering" to believers, so that there could be a refining effect. At the end of the day, God would be the most pleased if all of us, those who had left Hope and the Hope leaders have learned from their mistakes and changed for the better. That's the aim of this blog, not just an avenue of "ventilating" our grievances.

Then I regretfully have to say that you have deviated from that aim.
Coz it does seem to be an avenue of pple ventilating their grievances.
Plus, quoting bible verses dun make u a Christian as much as eating KFC makes you a chicken.

JesuaFreak said...

PS: At this point in time. i have absolutely no apologies for wot i said. if it offends/grievances anyone, pls feel free to email me for further clarification. =)

J said...

To JesuaFreak,

Thanks for replying. Both of us have presented our cases and thoughts. Although I don't agree with your opinions, I totally respect them.

Good for you that you personally believe that Hope is the most open and transparent church around for Singapore. =)

I will not comment further.