It is interesting to note many of the comments being posted regarding the Hope perth issue. Just to make it clear, i am not anti-HIM nor Church which do the right thing.
The biggest issue why this blog exist is because Ps PN and Dr Joseph Kriengsak is still trying to manipulate churches to try and restall their power in the previous Hope Movement. They have also recently align themselves with some other church planting movement. I saw a number of links from their website - these are the Friends of Hope
1. Apostolic Fellowship international
2. City Harvest Church
3. K.A.N.A.P
4. Project Amazon
5. Hosanna
6. Jesus is Lord Fellowship
7 Kings Christian Centre
8. Living Faith Fellowship
I believe not many people or the pastor know actually what is going on in the Hope Movement
I think HIM should actually write a formal letter to explain the situation. If you have friends in the these churches, you should let them know.
I think PN is trying to get more churches to be affiliated to Hope to help make them look good.
Just one fact. PN committed adultery and refused to step from leadership to be restored properly and instead split the church, would be sufficient for the pastors I believe.
As for the Hope Perth issue, I can only cast an open verdict there are alot of points and comments about the pastor. It will really be up to HIM to decide what is the best foot forward.
All I can say is as long as the Pastor walk with God the Church will grow, Pastor will make mistake and to grow one have to learn from ones own mistake, so that the church will grow under him or her.
Now regarding the Perth issue,
For those who left Hope Perth because of the Pastor, if he did do anything wrong do not worry, God ultimately will decide, trust me nothing is more stressful than a stagnating church, because after all that is why we have a pastor, to guide and grow God's church. You wouldn't belive the stress of seeing a church with the same number for 6-7 years.
For those who choose to stay in Hope perth and believe that the pastor is the best thing that happen to Perth, all i can say is then let the growth of the church be a statement of your confidence.
We can all argue till we are blue in the face, but ultimately just like Hope Bangkok, when Ps PN sin against God by committing adultery, stealing God's money to help finance Dr Joseph Kreingsak and leading his sheep astray by false teaching. Then i assure you, God's judgement hand will be upon the leader just like he split Hope Movement.
All I can say only TIME will TELL.
Monday, December 7, 2009
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158 comments:
Thanks, Eagle Eye, for sticking with the original purpose of this blog. I really hope it doesn't devolve into a site for rumors/allegations about local church issues.
Hi Eagle Eye,
Shouldn't we need to report to police on this and let them do their investigation on Dr J? Man! This is not fair for the people in Thailand.
At the end of the day, these are the money from people. If the church has cannot settle the case, why not bring other party in (which has higher authority).
To respond to your blog, how are you going to inform those churches about Dr J / PN saga? Is HIM going to write a letter to all these churches? Certainly NOT! We are not supposed to bad mouth others. Basically from what I can see, we can not do anything about that.
But at the first place, we SHOULD have escalated the issue and let higher authority (appopriate organisation/department) to handle that.
See?! We can always 'wait' until God do something. But we can always put a stop before more and more people getting hurt in the future.
It's the same with the Perth saga, you can wait till the cows come home and the top leadership is still waiting and praying about it. Just ask those who have left how long ago was the big exodus from Hope Perth. It has been a few years and yet nothing obvious is happening from the top leadership. I suspect that's why there were so many postings on that particular Perth pastor.
I have to say I agree, you can wait 'til the cows come home, give birth to baby cow, who in turn give birth to more baby cows & still nothing will be done! I'm all for giving second chances, but at what expense?
To answer some of the comments. Yes, there is a court case going on between Hope Foundation and Hope Bangkok.
I believe the foundation people are doing something regarding the election issue.
I also believe the reason Dr J was forced out of the democratic party was because the party knew what he was doing and was too risky to put him up for election. - that was the reason Dr J quit the Democratic party which now runs Thailand. Thank God Dr J did not make it.
As for Hope Perth, God works in his own timing. People can choose to stay or go. Ultimately, I suppose all leaders answer to God.
Eagle eyes.
For all we know, if a thorough investigation takes place in Hope Perth it might end up in court too. But those with full evidence is just being nice at the moment & not wanting to cause any major issues.
Thanks Eagle eye.
I wonder how does God feel when He see all these issues popping up ... But I believe God is in control and one day everything will be brought to the conclusion.
Guys, we need to ask ourselves a question - what are we supposed to do on Earth? At the end of the day we all will be judged based on what God has called us.
If HOPE can help you to fulfill all these, go for it! If not, then perhaps this may be the season to move.
MLB, I heard that Hope Perth now releases finance information in their bulletins. Also being an incorporated entity, they now have to be audited as part of the law. How can you be sure they are doing something wrong? Have u seen the evidence yourself?
MLB, The purpose of this blog is for Hope Bangkok.
MLB, maybe you should just start a blog for Hope Perth then...
I have a feeling MLB may be the one with evidence... So maybe don't provoke him?
Oh yeah, why not? Just start one for Hope Perth then...
MLB, start one then! Anonymous on December 9, 2009 3:25 PM is very right, this blog is for Hope Bangkok only. So create one for Hope Perth then.
Another one? Aren't we beating a dead horse? The last blog "We are all responsible" has already generated over 100 comments on Hope Perth
Exactly! So if there is a new blog for Hope Perth, it'll probably hit the roof with comments!
People have been saying that there is a Perthverdict on facebook. So MLB, your new blog can be called "perthverdict" too.
MLB,
For those people with evidence, why hide it just for the sake of being nice? If indeed something is very wrong with Hope Perth and people in there are unaware they are being led astray, don't you think those with the evidence and thus the power to change things will be held responsible by God for not putting a stop to it when they can?
Show the "evidence"? Or is there?
Come on MLB. Show the evidence!
that's great! show the evidence, I like it. Wow so exciting!! but....what kind of evidence is that??
Ha Ha Ha! AND NOW(wa), it's the time to destroy the kingdom(ma). I will strike the shepherd(da) and scatter the sheep(pa). Using all these Christians(la) - one by one, they shall come to an end....ha ha ha
Yes, I confirm that my husband always prepare the worst for the Kingdom, using Christians themselves to destroy. I told him myself! Am I very wise?
You are all so terrible!
Thanks for kind words!
Now, it's time to CRUCIFY that Stupid Pastor of Hope Perth! I just can't wait it any longerrrrrr!!
Oh No., please. The Lord bless you and keep you, may His glory shine upon you. Please don't crucify that pastor of hope perth. Please crucify me instead of him. Otherwise, crucify all the evil spirits in this blog!!!!
Stop la Stop la, I just can't stand it anymore also la...
Hoo, Woh, it's very interesting comments today! sounds like all these devils come from the same country!
Eagle Eye, did you know you can moderate comments? I suggest you turn on moderation so comments only get published after you approve them. Otherwise, this blog is going to quickly turn into a hub of Internet trolls.
You guys are getting a bit too much with your comments. The rest of us may not know who you are but God knows who you are. Do not judge or you too will be judged. Matthew 7:1.
Whether we like it or not, Ps Stephen hasn't been stood down, he is still officially a pastor under Hope movement. In another word, he is still anointed by God. The bible has many examples/stories of how not to judge God's anointed ones. For you and your family's sake, please watch what you are saying. I hope God won't struck you with leprosy!!!
Dear Anonymous@December 10, 2009 6:26 PM
Please be more specific and not make a sweeping statment like "you guys" implying that all us here are judging.
For me, I'm here to be objective about this matter and ask for evidence to be shown for any allegations made here. If there's no evidence, then I would really want to see a stop to those accusations. Am I too guilty of judging God's anointed and thus to be struck down?
Well, when I said 'you guys' I meant 'you guys'. Ignore my comment if your conscience is clear. Repent if it pricks your conscience. It's as simple as that.
Oh how nice! It's nice to have someone think that we could be struck with leprosy by God just because we air our thoughts in public. I'm sure it totally shows a loving and forgiving spirit too!
Now I hope I'm not pushing anything here, but would you wish cancer on someone?
All we wish is to expose possible wrongdoings of someone and wishes he does the right thing. And his followers actually wish leprosy on us for wanting truth, righteousness & justice??? I'm sure this is such a wonderful reflection of Hope Perth members.
When your parents tell you that they think you're doing something wrong, do you say, "I hope God won't struck you with leprosy!!!" ???
Wonder what kind of teaching this people are receiving!
If there is a moderator, won't that mean not all comments will be posted. Hmmm..
But precisely why public forums don't work because anybody, anywhere can post anything, truthful or not. Not a good place to discuss sensitive matters that requires accountability.
Also, again I think no one wants to put their head on the chopping board and say, "Look at me! I'm the one who has the evidence!!!" Again, that is also why whistleblowers are guaranteed confidentiality? Ever thought about that?
Vic,
What makes you think the goal you've mentioned is being achieved here? Everything here are only allegations and it will only remain as allegations without any supporting evidence. Is this your plan all along? To simply post out allegations anonymously? Who do you think is going to believe you this way? If you are so passionate about seeing justice being done and the wrong becoming right, then do it properly and not in this cowardly manner in a public space.
About being a whistleblower, whistleblowers do not use public forums like this eventhough its anonymous because it is totally ineffective. Whistleblower takes it up to higher authority because the higher authority firstly want to make sure they see the actual person who is making the report to judge his/her credibility and they would then need to see the evidence that comes with it. Once they are satisfied they will take necessary action. Who should the whistleblowers go to? Well higher up leaders of Hope or even the police if you have sufficient evidence of fraud. If you think those are not effective, then airing it here is not effective either so please stop until you got something more substantial to show.
I believe we don't really need evidence at all. I believe the purpose of those who have left Hope will have some reason or other.
Which may or may not be specific to them.
I think the idea is to point out some discrepancies and issues in Hope Perth. Cause sometimes members may not see the full picture unless you have both side of the story.
The aim is I think if you experienced some issues mentioned in the blog, at least you can't say you have not been warned.
I think some members are not blind and can piece some of the things here. Without going into the details.
Open your eyes, open your ears and decide yourself.
Good luck
My friend my uni told me about this to read the blog... interesting comments about HPCC.
I agree to the message of
Anonynous December 11, 2009 1:53 AM about the cowardly manner of all these accusers to the pastor! Even Rubina is a woman she is so boldly to declare the war against unrighteousness with her open ID BUT all these guys (if they are a man) who are hiding their ID they should borrow Rubina's skirts to wear it or put her stockings around their heads and and go to work at their offices.
For those reading the blog and still is in HPCC.
I wonder if and when you open your eyes do you get to see on first hand how the Pastor work ?
Remember don't get into his black list if you are, good luck to you. I am sure he will try to slander and say many bad things about you .
Just open your ears and hear what he says and you will understand the kind of person he is.
Remember one thing, once you are in his black book all your secrets and issues will come out to be used against you. And he will tell the whole world. So be careful. what you share.
But since i am out, thank God. But since i know he will be reading the blog as all his leaders are. So i will assume he will start doing what he do best..trying to put an end to this anyway he can.
before all the truth comes out.
God bless and have a happy holiday.
Ha ha ha BeelZboo, have you done what I’ve told you to deceive all these stupid Christians to destroy that church through this blog???
Oh lord lucifar(la), I am so sorry(la), not done yet(la), all these guys are too coward(la). I’m so disappointed at them(la), shame on them!(la)
All the evil spirits, I cast you out from this blog in the Name……
Oh no..oo, please don’t, this blog is my ‘home sweet home’, I have so many friends like myself here. Please don’t, I will miss them, they will miss me. They said that although they have been attending church for long time, but they are always ON MY SIDE!!! And now all their characters are exactly like me, SLANDERER!!!
Now, go into their houses or computers, don’t be in this blog anymore!
To MMM, why do you see the need to air out discrepancies here? Why not talk to your leaders' leader, i.e. up the chain of command, as per Matthew 18:15-17. Stop airing the issues here. It is not biblical.
To "Just a friend", show us the evidence of slanders, and by that I mean not friend of a friend said such and such. Proof please. Otherwise, you are just misrepresenting people or just accusing without proof.
To all, read the title of this blog "Hope Bangkok Church the reason for the blog".
I know LucyFar, BeelZboo and Charlie is the same person. And I have a feeling it's not from the side of the people who have something to say against Pastor Stephen.
Whoever this person is, must be either high on drugs, mentally unstable or depressed. Maybe someone who has been taking depression pills?
Ha! I think not only are they the same person, that person must be schizo as well! And obviously it's someone on the side of pastor stephen.
Well, whoever it is, is so childish. I wonder who?
To anonymous,
December 12, 2009 10:16 AM
I just ask people to be careful. I don't have to put out any evidence.
Once people are aware, I think everything that happens will start to make sense.
I think people are not so gullible.
Do some analysis and see if what was mentioned in the blog make sense.
Issues are there because it is an issue. Solutions are only viable if the solutions are acted on .
To ???, I think the craziness that was put in this blog sort of sums up what possibly can happen in this blog. Accusations, unfounded truths or nonsense can coexist in this blog but none are credible. Anybody can put anything and no information can be accounted for. Hmmm good way to discuss? Ask yourself.
To Just a friend, no evidence equals no credibility. And issues exist because people are not happy about something and feel the need to complain. But is complaining Biblical?
Anonymous, if you put those silly comments up for the sake of proving your point, then I feel sorry for you. I wasn't asking anyone to account for anything by the way. Did I say that?
Well, if it wasn't you anonymous, then maybe it was those depression pills causing slight insanity? Or is it the lack of those pills that are causing depression which in turn led to insanity? I'm sure that person knows in his heart who he is.
To ???, wow.. sharp comments indeed. Think you missed my point. Did I ask "you" specifically to account? I made a general comment about blogs.
And I can say, I don't know the identity of the person putting those comments.
Just to let everyone know, I have heeded the advice of Anonymous who commented on December 11, 2009 1:53 AM. And have informed the relevant government authorities, I shall leave it to them to make their call.
If I hear anything of importance from the relvant authorities, I shall post their findings or comments here. Otherwise, this will be my last comment. I see no point in repeating myself if someone is not able to see their own mistakes. I believe I have tried my best. Thanks for listening fellow bloggers!
I pray you are in a church that really glorifies God and not man. A church with leaders that may not be perfect but have integrity, humble enough to admit their mistakes, God-fearing enough to take personal responsibility for their deeds, and people-loving enough to want God's best for the church, propelling the individuals to serve God to their God-given calling and not just to serve the leaders.
God bless!
Hay, please make the good use of the blog to build up the church! Please don't waste my time!
UL, who is Hay?
You don't have to read you know?
MLB, Good on you to take the right path :)
To Anonymous December 13, 2009 2:26 AM, and ???.
Why do I have a feeling that the common denominator here is depression & pills? Is there something we should know about? Who is it you are talking about? Is it someone from Hope Perth? Surely, it can't be the man himself that you're referring to right?
Huh? Are you guys serious? Really? Does he have depression problems?
If so that might explain the impedement on his judgment & decisions. But are you guys really sure?
I'm getting confused. Who has depression?
To anonymous on December 13, 2009 4:44 PM.
So that means my statements can be accounted for. That's great!
I'm sure you don't know the identity of the person putting up those crazy comments.
Hello everyone! I just know about this blog and I shock when I saw that actually pastor stephen has depression? Am I reading correct? That is what is being said right? Even though I just join Hope Perth not very long, but I feel he always look so happy & cheeful. Always smile. I feel so hard to understand. At least he got take the medicine right? He must be very stressful with the going ons.
My friend tell me that they find out about this blog. And I see so many things here. Also cannot tell that pastor stephen got finance debt. Also don't look like it. Got car and got house and always dress well. But who will show when they poor right?
I pray pastor stephen will have no more depression and no more money debt soon!
???, the sarcasm just dripping all over.
I don't understand your thought process. I made a statement that I did not specifically ask you make an account, in reply to your previous statements. But then you turn around and said your statements are accounted for? Hmmm
sanchizhu, not all things said here can be 100% true. Don't just believe what is said here. But keep praying :)
Oh! I didn't read proper just now. Are you all refer to the person making those funny weird sentence that has depression or pastor stephen? Or is it pastor stephen make those funny sentence? I also confuse now.
sanchizhu, blogs are not a very effective to communicate information. Not all sentences can be 100% true. Why not talk to the Pastor himself? Many people can make up stories here, including people saying Pastor is making those weird sentences. Not true at all.
Now I even more confuse liao. Nobody said pastor stephen is making those weird sentences. I read carfully all the one before I write, but no one say it's him ah! anonymuos you say many people can make up stories here, including people saying Pastor is making those weird sentences. I can't find. :(
At first I thought I read wrong, and thought they talking about pastor stephen got depression, then I read again, and see no one actually say that.
are you talking about me? cos i'm the only one who say that! sorry sorry! i didn't mean that i only ask if they are talking that pastor stephen make those sentence. only question ah!
sanchizhu. Don't have to be confused. Not all statements in this blog is 100% true so don't have to figure out who is right or wrong.
*chuckle*
someone got caught out!
Sanchizhu, you are right, no one ever said that pastor stephen is the one making those comments! Could it be self admission on their part? Think about it!
If you read carefully, it is implied.
Look, there is no point arguing whether or not did Pastor Stephen wrote that comment. For those who say either yes or no can equally be right and wrong since this forum is entirely anonymous and anything goes.
Anonymous, I'm coming from a neutral point of view. Please copy and paste and show where it was implied? Because the only people who commented on who made those comments said the following:
"Whoever this person is, must be either high on drugs, mentally unstable or depressed. Maybe someone who has been taking depression pills?"
"Ha! I think not only are they the same person, that person must be schizo as well! And obviously it's someone on the side of pastor stephen.
Well, whoever it is, is so childish. I wonder who?"
"Well, if it wasn't you anonymous, then maybe it was those depression pills causing slight insanity? Or is it the lack of those pills that are causing depression which in turn led to insanity? I'm sure that person knows in his heart who he is."
Where was it said that it was pastor stephen? Because I don't see it as well.
My response to anonymous December 14, 2009 12:36 AM. I too do not see where there was any argument on whether it was pastor stephen or not. I only see many people asking questions. No one ever implied it was pastor stephen.
And please note, I'm just taking a neutral stand from what I read, please correect me if I'm wrong.
Anonymous December 13, 2009 8:10 PM
"Huh? Are you guys serious? Really? Does he have depression problems?
If so that might explain the impedement on his judgment & decisions."
Neutral, took me awhile to sift through.
Isn't that a question though? Reading it from an objective point of view, I don't think it's a statement. Honestly, I never thought it referred to Pastor Stephen until Sanchizhu's questions.
Sanchizhu, I'm not blaming you. Don't worry. I believe it was an honost query on your part.
To anonymous on December 14, 2009 2:27 AM.
If you read everything, you'll find that:
"Huh? Are you guys serious? Really? Does he have depression problems?
If so that might explain the impedement on his judgment & decisions."
is just a response to the comment before which said:
"Why do I have a feeling that the common denominator here is depression & pills? Is there something we should know about? Who is it you are talking about? Is it someone from Hope Perth? Surely, it can't be the man himself that you're referring to right?"
Neutral Reader & Sanchizhu, you are right, no one ever implied that Pastor Stephen is the one with depression problems.
Hello everyone again!
Anonymuos so you say not 100% true, so our pastor no depression is it? If no, is good. If yes, must pray for him right? 祈祷牧师没事!
Sorry I cause to trouble. 实在抱æ‰!
“Anonymous said...
I know LucyFar, BeelZboo and Charlie is the same person. And I have a feeling it's not from the side of the people who have something to say against Pastor Stephen.
December 13, 2009 2:26 AM “
To Anonymouse Dec.13 ’09 2:26am
I do agree with you that they are the same person, however, I also noticed that many previous messages post to attack this pastor also written by the same person but in different IDs but try to show that they are different people. The similar tactic has been used. IS THERE STILL CREDIBILITY IN THIS BLOG?? E.g. the poem ‘we love stephen’ December 2, 2009 10:58 PM seemed to be attacked by the same person who wrote it. (just put different id). Still questionable in many other places.
I think this is quite clear in overall picture that “It’s a Conspiracy to Discredit or an Attempt to destroy this poor pastor” LET’S PRAY FOR HIM FOLK!
Well observed... observer :)
Who would be as crazy as the one who posted LucyFar, Beelzboo & Charlie?
To "Just an observer", show us the evidence that the attacks were by the same person, and by that I mean not friend of a friend said such and such. Proof please. Otherwise, you are just misrepresenting people or just accusing without proof.
???, erm.... How can the evidence be obtained when all posts are anonymous?
how can anonymous people be misrepresented? Isn't that why people hide behind the cloak of anonimity?
To Anonymous December 15, 2009 12:08 AM.
That was exactly what Anonymous
December 12, 2009 10:16 AM requested for.
"To "Just a friend", show us the evidence of slanders, and by that I mean not friend of a friend said such and such. Proof please. Otherwise, you are just misrepresenting people or just accusing without proof."
So would your comment then be enough to reply Anonymous
December 12, 2009 10:16 AM as well?
To Anonymous December 15, 2009 12:08 AM.
We know blog is a place of public forum. You voice what you feel and discerning people can decide and make up their own mind.
All i am saying is people who voice some concern or have been involved in some ways will of course have their reasons.
I think all the previous post or the issues raised by many bloggers, were never sufficiently defended and the leaders who try to defend him have been proven to provide inaccurate factual information. I won't go into details but its here in the blog and comments.
Take one example.
Eg. One blogger or leader mention pastor planted church in USA and Thailand but this information was never true and refuted by many.
Yet, at the same time i have never seen in the whole post a substantial defense of all the issues raised by his leaders. Everytime someone say something to defend him, people were able to point out factual inaccuracies. Doesn't that tell you something ?
So what does that tell me ?
I think Eagle eye, did a short summary in the previous blog of the issues raised if you are interested.
So when people raise the points in the blog, they must have their reasons.
In all the these mud slinging, the points raised have mostly been substantiated. For example
Eg. Pastor Stephen wedding policy on people who left Hope Perth.
This was even confirmed by their own leaders, that this policy exist.
So you cannot say that when people put something here, it is baseless. There must be a reason.
So hope this answers your need for evidence.
??? Evidence of slander means recorded accounts of the actual words said by the source, not accounts of what people feel about the slander.
To Just a friend,
Most of the points of contention about Pastor have been explained many many times by the defenders. Minor details may be imperfect but the general rebuttals looks satisfactory. But most of the attackers, are just interested in pointing out flaws but not interested in the overall essence of the defense.
Now.. that reminds me of how the pharisees use to try to pick out flaws in Jesus' answers when ever they challenge Jesus with loaded questions so they can pin something on him. Now is that a good thing or bad thing?
Anonymous Anonymous said...
December 15, 2009 3:10 AM,
Are u sure the general rebuttal looks satisfactory ? Minor details imperfect ? The problem is what was mentioned is supposed factual account. You cannot say it is minor imperfection.
All i am saying is that the defenders never satisfactorily replied the questions posed by the bloggers.
What is the overall essence of the defense ? That people cannot get factual account correct.
Now, let me give you one analysis as was discussed in earlier comments
One of the defender talk about Pastor mentioning that he was being stopped from spending and buying a mission van. Until YLC came out and have to explain the whole sequence of affair. Which absolutely differs from the actual account.
It is my belief that certain factual truth have been CONVENIENTLY left out by the said leader.
Unfortunately,the leaders have never come out to say, " Yes, maybe i have stretch the truth a little, told some things that might have misled the public. Instead we stand behind this title of leadership and expected people to just obediently follow without questioning some decisions.
Look, even his own leaders, are not sure about their own fact until bloggers have to point out to them. I do not want to think what stories have been perpetuated where, the truth are only told in halves.
Many people put their issues out because they are not heard.
Leaders are not perfect, but if a leader make a mistake shouldn't they just admit it rather than try to justify their action ?
PN did the same, Dr J did the same. Is it a thai culture or is it God culture ?
Let's stop asking people for evidence. People won't say things if they cannot substantiate their claim.
All i can say is its always important to learn from our mistake and don't do it again that's all.
Just a friend,
All accounts have minor imperfections because human emotions or haziness of old memories or even forgetfulness are at play. None can be factual until all parties are in discussion and certainly does not happen in this blog. Every man and his dog is giving comments, not all can be called credible since it cannot be accounted for. Reason being it is all anonymous. How can anonymous accounts be factual?
Leaders are imperfect, as many have said. Any issues are to be dealt with "within" church structure as as per Mt 18:15-17. If people are not happy when speaking to the leader involved, go to leader's leader and so on so forth. Not in this blog. Talk to leaders, take courage and not hide behind the anonymity of blogs. That way your issues will be heard in proper channels, not in this blog though.
Hope I am clear.
To Anonymous@December 15, 2009 11:32 AM.
Firstly, I too do not agree posting here will be of any benefit but I'm here to share the reason why people have decided to post here anonymously rather than simply talk to the leader himself.
From reading all previous postings made by people who are on the attacking side, the reason is because they have tried and found it ineffective. They seem to suggest that the leader has a tendency to road block the feedback by constant rationalising. Some even mentioned about being labelled as negative spirit, being backstabbed and being ex-communicated because they voiced out and thus were pretty much forced to leave church. I believe this is the main reason why these people now are fed up and would rather post their grievances here anonymously. I believe this is one weakness that the leader must repent on reacting in such a way in the past and must genuine want to improve on it moving forward.
Again I am by no means agreeing that the approach of anonymous posting is sound, I am just explaining the situation is just not that straightforward where all can just sit down and talk about it. It always takes 2 hands to clap, if a leader is not seen to be able to accept feedback in good faith, then such would be the result of it where disgruntled people will come out and speak out anonymously.
I am not here to slander, but to give an honest feedback. Please improve on how you would receive feedback from now on. If there's an urge to react by backstabbing people, labelling them as having "negative spirit" and excommunicating them then please take a step back and think about it first. These actions are only taken by insecure people who feel threatened by feedback and such actions are "outdated" and belong to the middle age churches and no longer can be applied in today's modern information based age. Why need to feel threatened by feedback if we have an honest heart before God? Aren't we all brought together by God having different strong and weak points to build His church? Can we begin respecting these differences rather than putting each other down just because we are different?
Anonymous December 15, 2009 4:45 PM, Are all these actions biblical as per Mt 18:15-17? Let me attempt to cite some other biblical examples. Paul and Barnabas chose to go separate ways due to sharp disagreement. Did Paul or Barnabas continue to complain to about other behind each others back? In 2Samuel 15, Absalom underminded King David's leadership by not confronting David with his own issues with him but chose to spread discontentment amongst the people at the gates of Jeruselum. In Jesus' time, the pharisees underminded the Lordship of Jesus by countless times talking about Jesus not in a positive light stirring up discontent amongst the people until the day of Jesus' cruxifiction.
Now for those comments by the people who have left Hope Perth. Are they helping by offering honest opinions? Are those opinions affecting new readers of the blog in a positive way? As you can see from much of the posts, all these honest opinions have done is to stir up discontentment and causing people to have a negative view of Pastor Stephen and Hope Perth, even branding the church people as blind followers. Now, is that biblical? Are all these actions adding to the Kingdom of God or just serve to divide it?
To anonymous, December 15, 2009 5:24 PM
"Now for those comments by the people who have left Hope Perth. Are they helping by offering honest opinions?"
So are we supposed to give dishonest opinions? Is that what you've been advocating?
"Are those opinions affecting new readers of the blog in a positive way?"
If opening people's eyes to the truth is not positive then is keeping them in the dark and remaining blind to the truth considered as positive?
"As you can see from much of the posts, all these honest opinions have done is to stir up discontentment and causing people to have a negative view of Pastor Stephen and Hope Perth, even branding the church people as blind followers."
Stir up discontentment? Or was the nagging feeling that something is wrong already there from the very start. It's not as if people suddenly realise that for eg. pastor stephen has been excommunicating people?
"Now, is that biblical? Are all these actions adding to the Kingdom of God or just serve to divide it?"
The truth will set you free...
Anonymous@December 15, 2009 5:24 PM
Agreed, the actions of forumers here that make accusations are not biblical. I am not rationalising things by saying just because the leader has got faults, therefore it is right for people to post anonymous allegations here. To me unbiblical is unbiblical, doesn't matter what the reason is.
Like I already state in my previous post, I was only sharing the reason why people do it and was trying to highlight a point that it takes 2 hands to clap. In other words, both parties are at fault and have contributed one way or another to this mess whether it is a recent action or something that was done many years in the past. No party can claim they are 100% innocent here. Who cares who "hit first", the bottomline is both parties are at fault and both need to humble themselves and seek God's forgiveness for creating so much disunity in His house. If there are some that still thinks "I am right, they are wrong", then I feel sorry for you that pride has blinded you badly and hope God will remove that pride in you so one day you can see clearly.
Anonymous December 15, 2009 5:48 PM said
then I feel sorry for you that pride has blinded you badly and hope God will remove that pride in you so one day you can see clearly
That is a pretty serious charge. Please don't do the judging. Let God be the Judge.
To Anonymous December 15, 2009 7:59 PM.
Did you miss out the first part of the sentence AGAIN? The key word being "IF".
"If there are some that still thinks "I am right, they are wrong", ..."
I don't see what is wrong with asking God to remove pride in us? My bible says in 2 Sam 22:28, "You save the humble, but your eyes are on the haughty to bring them low." That might mean that God prefers the humble? Maybe?
We have been in Hope of God Perth church for over 13 years and we’ve seen many changes in the leadership team over the years. We used to have a Pastor who had a full time job and at the same time overseeing the running of the church. It’s been a very tough time for him to work full time and pasturing the church full time so he needs lots of support from the leadership team. Hope of God Singapore did send many good leaders to help oversee Hope of God Perth but still fail to build a strong foundation and unity among the people in the church.
We had a couple who were leaders in the adult care group but they left to go pioneer a church in Darwin. During that time, we were expected that two other leaders from other Hope Church will come to help out but none came. The current leaders struggled to help to take care of the people. Hence, many tensions and arguments started to heat up in the leadership team. Pastor was not able to receive the full support and unity in his leadership team and due to other personal reason he stepped down from his position.
Another leader from Malaysia came to oversee the church but the problem of disunity and tension among the leaders and the members were still not resolved. Pastor Stephen came in August 2003 by himself to Hope of God Perth church first, leaving his family in back Thailand. During that time, when he was about to board the plane from Thailand to Perth, he received a bad news that his dad just passed away. He could have delayed his flight in coming to Perth for his dad’s funeral but he didn’t. He tried to make friends with everyone to find out about the church history. Even though, he was given many negative feedbacks about the church, he still stands firm in believing in the vision that God showed him about Hope Perth church. Not many people that we’re known could do that, this sort of things is easier said than done.
We are very encouraged by the decisions he made to see the problems solved. Pastor is an intelligent man who holds strongly to the vision and stick strongly to what he believes in how to build up leaders in church. After getting to know Pastor, we find him very different from other Pastors. He is a humble, fun loving and passionate in doing God’s work. It goes the same to his family who always show sincere love and care for others. Pastor and his family made great sacrifices in terms of their finances and being away from their own home in Thailand to come to Perth. It is all because of their great love for God’s church.
One of Pastor’s vision is to see many churches been planted around Western Australia. It will take long hours to drive from one place to another to do mission work in WA. So Pastor thought of flying could be the better option to minimize the time spent in traveling in order to do outreach. He took up Pilot lesson mainly not for his own purpose but because he see it as a need to be more efficient in reaching out to the people in all different parts of WA. But then later he has to quit in learning to be a pilot because of some unforeseen situation. Despite of this, Pastor continue to work hard to minister to the people and help to grow the church.
Overall, Pastor and his family put in a lot of effort in helping to build up the church in Perth. The leadership team is now more united and supportive in wanting to see more quality and quantity growth in the church. There is a great sense of love and ownership of the church among the leaders and members. We are now proud to be in this loving and family oriented church. Really thank God for Pastor Stephen and his family.
Dear Ps. Stephen and members of Hope Perth,
Greetings in the wonderful name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It was with much dismay that I heard about the rumours and slanders being brought out against Ps. Stephen via the internet medium. It is a sad day when, supposedly Christian, accusers bring out such allegations in a public arena hidden behind the veil of anonymity. Surely this contradicts Scriptural principles.
I wish to reiterate that Ps. Stephen is here in Perth on our request and continues to be responsible as senior pastor over Perth because of our continued confidence in him. Some may allege otherwise by taking certain statements out of context and distorting it to their own ends.
May I clearly state that our intent is for all our churches and pastors to operate with integrity, godliness, love and grace. I believe that Ps. Stephen has sought to do this to the best of his ability.
May I also suggest that any attempts to directly reply to such accusations are of little benefit but will often stir the pot even more. It is better to pray for the Lord’s vindication and to stay strong together.
Our prayers continue to be with the Hope Perth.
In Christ,
Ps. Wilson Lim
I just want to bring out THE TRUTH about the First Mission Car where 'Witness' said that 'IT WAS REJECTED': in fact, it was true in her sense BECAUSE:
FIRSTLY: the person was the church's secretary and before the person left to join Hope Singapore, she saw how much the pastor struggled to get the van until she left before the van was purchased!!
SECONDLY: YLC did not really allowed to use the church existed money to buy the van but told the pastor to raise fund to buy the van, therefore, the VAN WAS BOUGHT THE FUND RAISING MONEY
It just like 2 disciples of Jesus told the same story but in different views, NO ONE TELLS A LIE about this purchasing of the VAN.
*Most of the blog's info carried out against Ps.Stephen have not been explained properly or no person in charge directly to explain BUT it doesn't mean that ALL THE CHARGES ARE CORRECT, in fact, in this blog 'IT IS NOT FAIR AT ALL' I agree to 'Anonymous' that 'JUST GO TO SEE PS.STEPHEN altogether all you people and talk to him face to face, I believe he is more than happy to talk with you guys.
Very soon, Ps.Wilson's letter about this matter will be posted here which will be the end of these argument, I believe no one of Hope Perth will try to post anything here again wthin these couple of days since it's the HIM's leadership suggestion.
Merry Christmas & Happy New Year ALL!
God bless you
A TYPO ERROR
"THE FIRST MISSION VAN WAS BOUGHT BY THE FUNDRAISED MONEY"
Looks like no one has told Pastor Wilson the truth yet.
Also, has Pastor Wilson tried to find out the truth as well? Did he talk to existing people in Hope Perth? Did he interview those who left? If not, then wouldn't his judgment be one sided as well, when he has only heard the story from Pastor Stephen and gang?
It's good someone posted the letter, now we can all see that even Pastor Wilson is clueless about what's happening!
To the accusers: Your voice has being heard by many. It reaches the ears of H.IM leadership and beyond. Have faith in our Lord and pray that God’s will be done, rather than ours. Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
To the accused: No every one who criticized us is our enemy and no everyone who says nice things to us is our friend. Mighty is the ocean, for she hosted many streams.
To all of us: Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. Proverb3: 5-6
Didn't all our top leaders side with PN initially as well? In their eyes PN was so good, they kept singing his praises.
Then when the truth was revealed, all of a sudden, nothing.
So all bloggers, don't worry. When the truth is eventually revealed, even the HIM leadership will have nothing to say about Pastor Stephen.
Is 'Anonymous Couple' a ghost couple? Never see them around before.
If the story is true then shouldn't 'Anonymous Couple' use their real name? Nothing to be shameful about right?
To YLC,
Can u help clarify this
FYI said...
I just want to bring out THE TRUTH about the First Mission Car where 'Witness' said that 'IT WAS REJECTED': in fact, it was true in her sense BECAUSE:
FIRSTLY: the person was the church's secretary and before the person left to join Hope Singapore, she saw how much the pastor struggled to get the van until she left before the van was purchased!!
SECONDLY: YLC did not really allowed to use the church existed money to buy the van but told the pastor to raise fund to buy the van, therefore, the VAN WAS BOUGHT THE FUND RAISING MONEY
It just like 2 disciples of Jesus told the same story but in different views, NO ONE TELLS A LIE about this purchasing of the VAN.
Because in my opinion, there seem to be some discrepency. The above reasoning of 2 disciple telling the same story but in different only works, if and when both views are put together there is no discrepency.
Writers was able to reconcile the different account of the different version presented by the disciple and piece together a coherent story.
Is 'Anonymous Couple' a ghost couple? Never see them around before.
December 16, 2009 12:00 AM
REPLY: if you are really in Hope Perth, please go to talk with the couple who love playing RC like control cars & plane, the husband is a mechanic also (there is only one mechanic in this church)
REGARDING CENTRES: Hope Perth has been started 'Hope Katanning' (since 2 years ago) which is about 3.5 hrs driving south of Perth, we have around 15-20 Chinese people who came from mainland China, we used to go weekly & then fortnightly but next year we prepare to go at least 3-4 times / month. This Christmas, there will be around 35-40 people from locals join us in the event. We used to run also 'Hope Mandurah' group by having around 5-7 local aussies joined us but some move to other country. Only Joondalup that we used to allow one unit from Perth to go to try to start it but not so successful, therfore, we now emphasize on one or two centres only for the time being.
FYI: many poeple have this info but just didn't want to explain in this blog to reply to the accusation that we only take people from Perth to go out to other centre to hold a service which is also incorrect, because they felt that this is not a proper place to talk. Many other accusations also wrong e.g. Ps.Stephen never excommunicate people who left the church or don't allow people from our church to attend their weddings!
*the true situation was: only top leadership are discouraged to invite "only some" people who left the church in negative way, not to come to any events in our church so that they won't influence our members BUT all our leaders have a freedom to visit them or go to any of their event incl wedding. However, this agreement was done only among top leadership team and not include any members. (nowadays, since Hope Perth is a big Happy Family, we have called off/cancelled this policy in the leadership)
*Just like I said previously, better to come in to talk with the pastor 'like a gentelman' rather than criticising in this blog and never get a full info. even cause many other people to misunderstand in public place. Just imagine, put your name in this blog with all these accusations instead of this pastor, how would you feel bro/sis?
If I were the pastor in question, I would humble myself, be completely honest with myself, reflect on the accusations and know that there has to be a certain level of truth to the accusations.
To all bloggers, my personal feel is that we should just leave this pastor alone. Besides didn't MLB say that evidence has been submitted to relevant authorities? So let's just wait and see. That's my point of view.
Replying to FYI Post on December 16, 2009 7:02 AM.
Quote:
" Ps.Stephen never excommunicate people who left the church or don't allow people from our church to attend their weddings!
*the true situation was: only top leadership are discouraged to invite "only some" people who left the church in negative way, not to come to any events in our church so that they won't influence our members BUT all our leaders have a freedom to visit them or go to any of their event incl wedding. However, this agreement was done only among top leadership team and not include any members. (nowadays, since Hope Perth is a big Happy Family, we have called off/cancelled this policy in the leadership)"
Unquote:
Well, to some maybe it's ex-communication, to another it maybe not. To some it's an advice but to another it's an instruction. It's ridiculous to lay down such " controversial policy" at the first place. I hope we all can learn something out from this.
MB
Pastor Wilson already said, "May I also suggest that any attempts to directly reply to such accusations are of little benefit but will often stir the pot even more. It is better to pray for the Lord’s vindication and to stay strong together." in his email.
So why are you people on Stephen's side still replying to the accusations? Better listen to your top leadership.
To anonymous couple:
"But then later he has to quit in learning to be a pilot because of some unforeseen situation."
What unforseen situation might that be?
To anonymous couple:
"But then later he has to quit in learning to be a pilot because of some unforeseen situation."
What unforseen situation might that be?
Hi FYI,
Your assessment is wrong as usual. I think some of the defenders have already mentioned that Pastor have the policy to exclude people who left church from attending wedding and also inviting the people who left church to Hope member's wedding. Why contrdict your fellow defenders. They already agreed to that this policy exist and have mentioned how it was enforced
.ou can go and ask those who married in the church if they were allowed to invite those who left church to join a wedding, " which by the way has nothing to do with church event."
This policy was already confirmed by your own defender very earlier on in the other posting.
This policy was never cancelled, to the contrary. I think people are not blind, lets wait for a few more weddings in Hope perth to see if your assessment is true. That this policy was ever cancelled.
Remember if you tell half-truth, then this half truth will be exposed. We have got grounds to believe that this policy was never rescinded, and won't say so unless we can substantitate our claims.
Let just say why dont we wait till next year and we can all find out more of this issue. I wont want to spoil the fun.
We will reveal more next year.
Have a happy hols
It will be an interesting year next year.
But I still have my doubt that anything would change though.
Poor Hope Perth.
To both sides remember that we are always told that "we will reap what we sow."
If we sow unhealthy and highly controversial church policies that hurt people, then this is the fruit of what was sown.
To those who falsely accuse, if we sow destructions from false accusations, then we will certainly reap destruction.
Happy holidays...
A different view
Being a missionary or a pastor is a tough job, especially if we were to go out into an unknown country.
Most mission or outreach are always people moving from a developed country to a less developed country.
When a pastor have the opportunity to move from Thailand to Australia to pioneer or help out a church. we sometimes forget that we are moving from a place of less opportunity to one with better living standards and better life for the family. Most workers in Thailand get an average of 1000 AUD or 20,000-30,000 THB. And only a very blessed few get an opportunity like Pastor Stephen to give his family a better life.
Regardless of what has transpired, I dont believe that coming to Australia is a big sacrifice at all, as what some of the bloggers posted.
Putting all the talks about visions and dreams aside, a pastor in Australia will earn more wages than most average thai. If i were to go by the visa 457 requirement then I believe you can earn 3-4 times the wages of an average Thai worker. Please note Hope thai pastor or full-time staff earns btw 12,000 THB - 25,000THB
Even though the cost of living is higher. The savings difference is immense.
If you were a thai and been asked to go overseas to a better country to pioneer, would you go ? I would for sure.
Secondly, I must admit previous Hope sometimes make error in judgement. Hope has always believed that we have to work into the role of leadership.
Unfortunately, we did not follow standard procedure in this case. Hope has always believed that past success is not an indication of a persons current spiritual life.
When a person has step down from active ministry and have not been a pastor for a long time, it is always wise to first tackle all previous issues pertaining to the reason for the departure.
Running a church is not as simple as it seems. Its not just about visions and dreams, many great pastors have that but many too have fallen by the wayside. The number of pastor who fell are just too numerous, even Ps PN was not spared.
What we leaders often forget is that its not about visions and dreams and building a church. Because if our personal life is still in turmoil and there are stuff God still wants us to deal, but we blatantly ignore it. Then whatever the issue, i am sure it will come back to bite us.
God never allows us to just walk away without learning our lessons. We should start from gound zero and learn to eat humble pie when being disciplined by God.
One of the greatest fallacy in Hope BKK teaching as in the point of Ps PN is that, It seems leaders can do no wrong, and even if they did sin, they do not believe in taking the consequences. PN the top leader is one very good example. This is one lesson we need to learn and not repeat.
Will the church in Perth, grow stronger from this ? No one knows, only God can answer that. But i can assure you this, if you want to grow God's church but do things that are contrary to the moral and ethical standards set by God. YOu can preach till you are dry and nothing will happen.
LAST POST FROM FYI,
Sorry for this Last Post just to make things clearer since some people don't really have true INFORMATION and just guess in their thinking?
Especially Anonymous December 19, 2009 4:56 AM
1) Agreed to average income stated for Thai pastor but Ps.Stephen was an Export Manager of a Thairice Exporting Company (name shown at the beginning under his photo), he earn Thb 50,000.-/month plus Volvo car and Apartment nearby the office(this is around 9 years ago). When he was invited to come to Hope Perth he never asked how much would he receive and he got only around A$100/week for the first seven months, although the church provided a room for him to stay with an old car w/o air-con for the ministry.
2) Although he stepped down from Hope Haiyai 1996 and returned to Hope Bangkok, he still served as a Sub-District Leader having 35-40 people in his care(under C2). He didn't completely leave the ministry as per accusers said.
3) Before he arrived in Perth, he was told that at least 5-6 leaders had stepped down and the leader (a lady) who came from Malaysia after 5 years 'had enough' of this church & decided to leave.
4) No leaders prior to Stephen was ordained/appointed or called 'A Pastor', according to the standard of HGI and Hope Movement in general last time that 'Only a church that has already been stable with Sunday attendants of 40 people and above, the leader will be appointed as the pastor, otherwise would be called 'A Church Co-ordinator': Couldnt' this give some kind of information that how struggled Hope Perth was in those 10 years before Ps.Stephen arrived Perth? Nowadays, we have a breakthrough above 100 + plus some centres. Therefore, Stephen was the first ordained pastor of Hope Perth.
5) About running a church in USA., it's true that he never runs a church in USA but he was running only a Small Group in Queens, New York having his god parents and one member from Hope Bangkok with him. An account of Hope New York was set up at Citibank New York for offering but when he returned to Thailand the a/c was closed and all money was transfered to Bangkok by his member.
THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST;
A reply to FYI
FYI (last post) said...
LAST POST FROM FYI,
Refer point 1 - 50,000THB( approx 1800) and 1 car compared to current salary plus 2 cars to be used for the family and other pastor benefits I am sure we dont want to go into that area. Which would you choose ? Regardless you will never be short changed if you move from Thailand to Australia. Thai workers can never earn as much as even ordinary workers in australia
2) If he was still serving then indeed it would be sad that he is the first overseas pastor to face such issues, especially in the area of finance. won't say more but maybe people could ask why he step down in the first place. Which area was his archille's heel ? Usually if you have overcome the area, this same area will not come back to haunt you.
3)as for the previous leader, i won't comment on that and start something entirely different. I believe besides people there were other reasons. Won't elaborate
4) I am sure "someone" will have someting to say. Before Pastor Stpehen there was another hope Pastor and yes he is ordained. He was given the title Pastor. Those who are in Hope long enough will remember him. So, Pastor Stephen is NOT the first as you claimed. I can prove it, He was in the first batch of pastors together with Ps Gordan, Ps Victor, Ps Ian,..... does that jot your memory FYI
5) The word was "Church" as defined by general conventional terms. Small group is not a church. If indeed then we should not call care group, care group we should just call it Church. If you want to call it church, then by definition, is that church in US still exist ? If not, so are we saying the church was dissolved ? So is that success or failure?
Thanks for your last reply FYI. So i will assume you will say no more on this.
I remember Pastor Stephen sharing before about how he lost a lot of money dealing in real estate, and caused a lot of people to lose money as well. And then he also share about how a few times he was so broke that he couldn't even feed his family. Had only few dollars in bank. That was all before he came to Hope Perth.
I also want to know if it's true that Pastor Stephen has depression? Maybe FYI you can shed some light? I hear a few whispers about this already. And it's probably good to clear the air.
FYI seems to know a lot of details. I wonder....
Don't you have to go on medication if you have depression? Must cost quite a lot of money too.
FYI, I'm sure you would know whether or not Pastor Stephen had or is having depression and whether he was on medication previously.
If it is not true, please say something, as I see it as quite a serious matter & shouldn't be something to joke around with.
Unfortunately, they will not respond as advised by the Top leaders.
But you just have to make an educated guess from their reply if you want to know any answer
Truth so far :
1. There are people who have left because of differences with Pastor. Many of them who left have their reasons, if you probe deeeper there are many issues. The defenders claim restructuring and Pastor trying to do right. But there is actually more reasons then that
2. There was indeed a policy to cut-off Members who left and are not happy. defenders gave their reasons already why Pastor did it. If you want to be a leader you need to "disown" your "friends"
3. Finance have always been a touchy issue with Pastor. And if you are smart enough to put 2 and 2together you will get a bigger picture. How much are in the emergency fund, building fund and church fund. How was money spend ?
If you want to know the details... its all in the blog, but not in coherent order. You will start to piece together, what is going on.
I am sure if people post questions.. i believe people will provide some answers on this blog
I'm also interested to know if Pastor Stephen has depression. Word has been going around. But different versions though.
Some say he has depression & is still on medication. Some say he used to have depression. Some say even though he used to, he now is back on medication again. And there are also some who say that it is serious enough to affect the way he do things or make decisions. And that he is irrational because of this disease.
The reason I'm asking is because I think if its true, the top leadership should know about this. Especially if it affects the way he runs the church.
To publisher,
One of the defenders let slip in their post, when someone was talking about Charlie and the wierd posts....
In their post they accidentally implied that charlie and the wierd post was him and they talk about depression.
Now accordingly, if you have depressions, its something you can't just get rid of. If he had previously, its not that easy to cure and i can assure you with this issue now on the blog, it will be stressful indeed.
You can read about symptoms of depression and you will understand more.
But you are right, when you have medical conditions you will become irrational and decisions are often impaired. Maybe that is the reason for people leaving.
You figure
I'm sorry, I don't quite understand. So people left because they found out Pastor Stephen has depression? Either way it's sad. How come no one knows about it then? This should be something that everyone can pray for.
This is interesting news. I never thought Pastor Stephen has depression! Cannot tell. He always smiling all the time, and so happy. It must be pretty hard for him behind closed doors. Yes, it would be so stressful for him, all these things going on.
Actually not that difficult to solve, all it takes is humility. Maybe its the depression.
FYI's statements contain much that is incorrect. At best FYI is innocently mistaken. At worst FYI is attempting a re-write of history. Either way read with care and many pinches of salt.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2010.
MB
Pastor Stephen has depression????? Wow, I must say, really wow!
I feel sorry for this family.
Pastor Stephen has depression, Pastor Hannah had cancer, financially in debt & many members leaving church bcos of feelings of misappropriate in finance & other issues. So many things happening in their lives. And the way I see it, they are all linked!
Bcos Pastor Stephen financially in debt for so long, then may be hard to handle finance in church, then lead to depression, then maybe unable to think rationally & make wrong decisions all the time, then when Pastor Hannah had cancer, further stress come, then even more serious depression, then even harder to handle church finance & other issues, then members not happy bcos of this, so a lot leave.
I think many leave but bcos they didn't know that Pastor Stephen has depression.
Greetings from a brother in Hope Singapore. I'm deeply saddened that such a misfortune has come upon the Pitavanik family.
Depression is indeed not a trivial matter. And more so if it has started to impede upon the decision making abilities of a pastor. I feel it is probably time for Pastor Stephen to speak to someone about this matter. And I have a strong suspicion that this depression was meant to be kept under wraps. Now that it is out in the open, I would suggest Pastor Stephen to speak to Pastor Wilson or Pastor Simon about this.
Coming from an objective point of view, I do seriously feel that there has to be a certain level of desperation for hope perth members to be crying out for this much help. I doubt there would be no justification behind the matters or issues brought up by various people. And bearing in mind this unfortunate happening in Pastor Stephen's life, I feel there may really be a certain level of truth to the outstanding issues. Maybe someone should really look into it.
Merry Christmas one and all!
HIMSING,
You have no idea what Hope Perth have been through the last year or more. No matter how much the people cry out, it seem no one can hear or no one seem to want to help.
They always protect pastor first, the interest of the member is second. So sad and disappointing.
I don't think depression can be use as excuse here.
You see, Pastor Stephen himself don't even dare answer to accuastion aginst him. Only send other to talk for him.
This is only one thing I can say.
Coward.
as far as i know... he does have depression, that is the truth
respond to MLB, I will be very keen to know the outcome from the government authority.
The govt will not do anything, because Non profit organization is often given more freedom.
But its sad to think that many leaders can't tell right from wrong. They will follow the pastor blindly and not question if that decision is even sane or spiritual.
If you want to be a leader, the pastor word is the law, even if it makes no sense.
Well good luck to them all.
Heard lots about THE pastor from Perth, not untill I looked at these conversation. There is no smoke without fire! Certainly something is really wrong happening over there. What kind of visa is this dishonour man on? Why does he need a higher remuneration package ?
To Anonymous on May 17,2010 at 10.08 am
You seem to easily put tag on people labeling them "coward", "dishonest",etc. You know that after you have said that out loud, it really reflects what kind of person you are from what you said. You must really have a bitter root inside you growing deeply. May God's grace help you overcome it soon because I'm sure your words have caused a lot of followers to go astray and a lot of discouragement on those people you have described. You don't seem to me a new person here as you tried to pretend. May God have mercy on you.
LR
To LR on May 17, 2010 1:55 PM, aren't you are just as jugemental as I am?
QUOTE: "You don't seem to me a new person here as you tried to pretend."
This is what we call the blind lead the blind. A good example just in time. Good luck on you!
Fabricated artifact or not, the virdict is out. God Bless.
Parable of the Beggar and the King
There was once a Mayor and a Beggar who lived in the same Town. The Mayor was well-loved by all; he was rich, influential, and eloquent. The Beggar, on the other hand, goes about his daily routine, relatively unnoticed.
One day, while walking inside the Grocery Store, the Beggar saw the Mayor slip ten bars of soap under his exquisite robe.
Outraged, the Beggar ran to the Shop Owner to tell him about the Mayor's crime. The Shop Owner, however, snapped at the Beggar.
"Do you have a hidden motive for telling me about his act? Are you trying to disrupt the peace in the neighbourhood?"
Undeterred, the Beggar went outside the Grocery Store, and shouted to all who would hear: "Hear ye! Hear ye! I was in the Grocery Store when the Mayor stole ten bars of soap! Who will join me in indicting him?"
But most of the bystanders ignored him, and went their way. Others, disgusted at the sight of the Beggar's rant, shouted at him: "Do you have something up your sleeve? Are you trying to cause riots in this town?"
Dismayed, the Beggar decided to try one last thing. He put up notices all over the Town; on the walls, the lamp posts, and even outside the police station.
Most ignored the notices and went their way. Others, in a fit of rage, ripped off the notices, threw them onto the ground, and uttered: "Who is this man making a nuisance of himself, tarnishing our beautiful environment with this trivial concern?"
Some shook their heads and said to the Beggar: "It's okay to be critical. But have you become cynical? Go home and repent of your sin!"
The Beggar, realising that the Towns Folk adore the Mayor too much, decided to give up.
One day, the King of the nation, upon hearing of this matter, decided to pay the Town a visit. He summoned the Mayor and the Beggar before him, and heard the Beggar's complaint.
The King was furious, and spat on the ground. Pointing to the Mayor, he said: "Justice knows no status, no race nor riches. The law is a fair lady, treating everyone equally. People may ignore the poor and the uneducated, but not I, the King. From henceforth, you are no longer the Mayor of this Town."
Source: http://irreligiously.blogspot.com/2010/05/parable-of-king-and-beggar_21.html#more
Isn't the story a familiar one? =)
Lesson 1
Justice knows no status, no race nor riches. The beggar should have follow the right course and taken the Mayor to the police and go through the proper prosecution procedure. This would be more effective in the first place.
Lesson 2
Human beings are programme to feel comfortable with constant environment and change can be very challenging. In many instance people choose to deny and taken passive acceptence such as Towns Folk in this parable.
Some legal information about Hope Perth.
ABN: 46 700 979 340
Last modified: 16 Aug 2006
ABN status: Active from 01 Nov 1999
Entity name: HOPE OF GOD PERTH
Entity type: Other Incorporated Entity
GST status: Effective from 01 Jul 2000
Main business location
State: WA
Postcode: 6155
Trading name(s)
Other registrations
Tax Concession status: HOPE OF GOD PERTH, a Charitable Institution, is endorsed to access the following tax concessions:
Tax concession From
GST Concession 01 Jul 2005
FBT Rebate 01 Jul 2005
Income Tax Exemption 01 Jul 2000
Deductible Gift Recipient:
Not entitled to receive tax deductible gifts
extracted from,
http://www.abr.business.gov.au/
For those of you who have been paying tithes and claiming tax at the same time.
Hope Perth is not a registered tax deductible gift recipient (DGR). Therefore this organisation cannot receive tax deductable gift in any form such as money, property or trust.
Legal information,
Gifts to charities:
Charities can receive tax deductible gifts provided the organisation is a DGR. Some charities are not DGRs and therefore cannot receive tax deductible gifts.
Source:
http://www.ato.gov.au/print.asp?doc=/Content/66281.htm
To Anonymous May 25, 2010 12:06AM
For your information, tithes and offerings given to churches has never been tax deductible. If the church has a non-profit organisation or a school, then donations to such is tax deductible. Even building funds are not tax deductible unless there is a private ruling from the ATO stating that only a certain portion of the donation can be tax deducted. Then there are rules governing that ie. what is the donation to the building fund going to build. That is my understanding.
Reply May 25, 2010 1:55 AM,
Yes you are right. All tithes and offering has never been tax deductable item unless the organisation is registered as one.
This information is useful for those who are claiming tax return for any donation. While this is not the case. Make sure we do the right thing.
This information is useful for those who are claiming tax return for any donation. While this is not the case, only registered deductable gift recipient (DGR) are allowed to accept tax deductable donation.Just a kind reminder to make sure we are doing the right thing.
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