Wednesday, January 26, 2011

Happy 2011 and my wish

Its been a long time since i actually logged onto the blog. With each passing year, I really hope that greater things will come out of the HIM movement, which I am still in but have since adopted a more passive observer role

Lets hope the lessons of the past will not be forgotten and we will never make the same mistake again.

Many friends who have left the Hope movement have asked me why i never make the move. I suppose like it or hate it, there are some really good principles that have since been adopted by the HIM movement and I would hate to change for the sake of changing.

There are a couple of churches which I would have considered but there are not in the country i am residing in.

I plan to start blogging again, but this time to share some of my devotion or things i have learned from other teachers and Pastors.

So here's wishing everyone a Happy new year.


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Bob Katter's hat said...

Third of several comments posted 19-20 hours ago which mysteriously disappeared:

Some of those differences which immediately spring to my mind are:

Rubina confronted the wrongdoers and did not hide behind the cloak of anonymity.
Rubina did not post accusations or defamatory comments about the wrong doers for everyone to read publicly on the internet.
Rubina had evidence with which to confront the wrongdoers.
The wrongdoers whom Rubina confronted had the opportunity to speak in their defence.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Fourth and last of several comments posted 19-20 hours ago which mysteriously disappeared:

Even the Lord gave Adam and Eve the opportunity to speak in their defence after they sinned for the first time and He confronted them in the Garden of Eden.

One more inconsistency for neutral observers to mull over – Rubina is being held out as a person who did the right thing (a heroine perhaps?) for her actions in confronting and bringing about a split in the movement. On the other hand Simon Eng is being cast as a villain for choosing to split from the Thai churches when the “main branch’ became a liability to him. Would Simon’s accusers have preferred that he keep Hope International in with the Thai churches? Please explain what you think Simon Eng should have done in the circumstances and why. It sounds frightfully like a case of Simon being damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t do to me. For myself I would certainly be very grateful if the burden of making the decision Simon had to make fell on another person.

Bob Katter's hat said...

A person calling himself or herself “qa” made these comments in the Chatbox around 11 June 2011

11 Jun 11, 14:35
qa: if u rent a place and get a few members, should we call u a pastor Bob Katter? dont lie to the people here, dont lead them to slaughter

11 Jun 11, 14:28
qa: anyone could rent a place and call themselves pastors, these HIM leaders are not pastors, they are entreprenuers

Today a comment was made in the following terms:

“Anyone could rent a place and call themselves and their movement whatever they want”

Can today’s blogger please either confirm or deny that he or she is the same person as “qa”?

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

The beauty of this blog is that everyone can share his or her experience with the Hope Movement and this information is very valuable especially for those who have been invited to attend Hope meetings. The warnings are there and it is up to them to make a wise and informed decision.

Anonymous said...

Today's so-called charismatic revival, hailed as a great move of the Spirit, is, I believe, a lying sign. It is for the most part, I fear, the result of unbelief and sign seeking. The report of great numbers from all denominations experiencing the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in other tongues as the evidence is, I believe, a false revival. The lack of spiritual depth and transformation is very manifest among the thousands who claim this experience.

We have personally observed many who were strangers to the new birth but who had supposedly been led into this experience. Some later, under the convicting power of the Word of God, were genuinely converted and entered into spiritual rest. We have also found many who had received evil spirits (demons) under the guise of receiving the Holy Spirit.

These spirits not only had entered these people at the time they thought they were receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but they would manifest their presence by speaking in other tongues when stirred up. One poor woman, who had a husband and seven children, and who thought that God had a work for her to do, had received such a spirit and was cursing God unknowingly. This spirit was received in a meeting where people were being encouraged to receive the Holy Spirit. When she received and began to speak in tongues and sway under the power, they rejoiced and told her, "You've got it! You've got it! You've got it!"

In addition to this case and others which we personally know about, there are many who have received religious spirits under the guise of receiving the Spirit of God. This, of course, is also true of millions who have joined other religious movements that don't emphasize or believe in this particular manifestation. Whatever spirit is being ministered is what people receive, whether it be true or false. Everything must bring forth after its own kind. This is the law of the spiritual as well as the natural. When a person is deceived by an evil spirit-induced experience, that experience becomes a lying sign to the one deceived.

The first thing a religious spirit does after entering a human vessel is to convince the person he now has God living inside of him and that he must convert others to his doctrine or experience. Satan is an evangelist who works very diligently to gain converts to his religion, philosophy or experience. This accounts for the phenomenal growth of many religious movements.

Anonymous said...

To the Anonymous who just entered the last blog about REVIVAL, I would like to know what point you are trying to make? Can you please expand on what you are trying to say? All I know is that you are reporting about the "Baptism in the Holy spirit" as believed by Pentecostals and Charismatics to be equated to being demon possessed and controlled by evil spirits!! What exactly is your point in relation to the discussion on this blog??

Anonymous said...

Don't you see the point? Deceitful practices in the Hope Movement as well as in other congregations which emphasized supernatural experiences have a spiritual source.

Anonymous said...

To the anonymous on REVIVAL - no, I cannot see your point at all. All I see is you making a blanket statement without any concrete biblical verses and evidence and saying that those who are baptised in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues is demon possessed. Again, this goes back to all the things that Bob Katter is trying to say in this blog and also Gou Xiong - that what we say must not be baseless in our comments and we cannot just make statements without anything to back it up.

Yes, there may be some people who are not really filled with the spirit - they could be demon possessed or perhaps working from the flesh but to say that of a whole congregation or movement, I would not say it and I dare not.

Please be careful of what you say and provide proof - not on hearsay or what you feel.

Anonymous said...

To the brother/sister who was subjected to abuse, I am truly sorry to hear what you went through... I truly pray that God will heal your hurts...

And to the other bro/sis who wrote "HIM leaders is courageous to split from the Thailand branch? Are you serious? The shepherding system is practiced when this movement are founded tens of years ago. Why after so many years? Why not earlier?":

It is my understanding that Ps. Simon and the others broke of from Hope Thailand when Ps. PN refused to step down and the other things I mentioned in my post and not because of the shepherding teaching. Actually, the sheperding system was actually one of its strength which unfortunately led to abuses and I think that the HIM leaders probably still think it is a good thing.

Initially when I first joined Hope, I too thought it was a great idea until as time go by, I began to see its flaws usually depending which type of person you get as a shepherd. I did not really think how bad it was until I started reading from this blog.

That is why I strongly hope that HIM leaders will take a serious look at shepherding...I am thinking of those sincere brothers and sisters who are still in HIM... I certainly do not wish them to be subject to the abuses that our bro/sis above, suffered...

The Navigators also practised discipleship where a mature believer will help to teach a new believer but to my knowledge, I have not heard of any abuses... In fact, in the early days after I was born again, somebody actually took the trouble for a couple of weeks to teach me the basics of the Christian faith and I am grateful for that person to this day and because of that, I too would like to do that for others...

But never to dictate to others what to do with their lives like the way I have seen Hope leaders doing... such as telling them that in the interest of spiritual matters, not to go for further studies, to get their consent before committing to a BGR relationship, etc...

Years before I joined Hope, I heard a well known British Bible teacher taught that we should never tell people what the Bible does not expressly say. Interestly, he even shared that we should let a person pray to God on how much he/she give because in the New Testament, the tithe was not mentioned. 2 Corinthians 9:7 says "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." I always remembered what he said "it is between him and God..."

Hmmm... Hope would never agree on that, will they ?

Anonymous said...

This blog is to share personal experiences with the Hope movement. It may include observations of leadership style characteristics and practices during a long period of time as well as personal testimonies of ourselves or other Hope believers regarding the mixed effects of supernatural experiences.
It should be noted that not everyone in this blog have had access to the Hope teaching for leaders and thus information on this regard may not be corroborated by others.
Please understand that my purpose in sharing is not to discredit the Hope movement which I left for the only reason that I came to the conclusion it was a cult. After that I have spent a lot of time examining my own and others experiences and reading other testimonies from different sources. Generally speaking, the mix of good and evil in supernatural experiences is well documented since year 1905 by missionaries and pastors who have had to minister deliverance to believers who went through supernatural experiences such as speaking in tongues. I personally testify that similar cases have been found in the Hope movement.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Just when I thought I had heard it all I read today’s comments and am still groping trying to pick my jaw up from the ground. Better hit the sack before jaw and head are irretrievably separated.

Anonymous said...

Concerning the "baptism of the holy spirit", there's no evidence pointing either way - that the person "speaking is tongues" is "touched by the holy spirit" or "demon possessed". But since this Charismatic movement also claim to believe in the Bible and based on a presumption that almost always that nothing is gain without effort, this "gift from the holy spirit" cannot manifest itself without first having understanding of what is "holy spirit" itself. It's like you cannot draw a cow without having seen a cow before in your life. If the person speaking in tongues or prophesying have poor knowledge of the Bible which he claimed himself his "gift" are based upon, then this "gift" is from somewhere else. Furthermore, these "gift" should not take the center stage in one's spiritual life as these 'gift" are of vague origins, like shifting sands on the shore, it kept changing, one second maybe it's from God, the other second who knows.

Concerning shepherding, one of the main flaws is it's always works one way, from top down. We all give advice and guidance to each other, as friends or as seniors. There's should be no obligations to obey the other. We have reservations because we knew our shortcomings and we know we aren't always correct. We also realized we aren't better in every way than the one we are giving advice to, and the mentor-disciple relationship could switch depending on the matter. Since God knows the heart of a person, a person doesn't believe just by saying he believed, but in his heart he don't believe, and there's no blessings from doing even a right thing under obligation, this shepherding practice has no spiritual purposes but rather used as a tool and excuse to control others, assimilate them, and to create a top to down hierarchy or mode of command.

What is so honorable of these HIM leaders to choose to break apart from their Thai counterparts? The shepherding practice is not new. Many movement have tried shepherding in the past and it's shortcomings and abuses are discussed at length by many Christian leaders. These same HIM leaders knowingly involved themselves in a shepherding movement which is Hope Movement, some working together for as much as 30 years. Ironically, shepherding is still practiced in HIM movement at this very moment. What reforms are we suppose to look for in HIM movement? Appeared like these HIM leaders are taking a strategic split to contain the ripple effect from the scandals of some personalities from bringing down their own careers. CANCEL SHEPHERDING. Then we talk.

Anonymous said...

From what I read from books on revivals of the past, where there had been the move of the Holy Spirit, there were also reports of counterfeits of the enemy as well. Because of this, some of the responses of some Christian groups have been ‘to throw the baby out with the bathwater’. And yet the Bible clearly tells us to ‘eagerly desire spiritual gifts (1 Corinthians 14:1) and ‘speaking in tongue’ is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:10).
Interestingly, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is ‘distinguishing between spirits’ (1 Corinthians 12:10) so it seems that God has thought of everything when He through His Holy Spirit gives us spiritual gifts.
Years ago (about the 1980’s to 1990’s), I remember meeting someone from a mainstream denomination church who told me that speaking in tongues was from the devil. (However, recently, I attended one of the churches of the said denomination and I am delighted to hear that the pastor preaching very closely to what was stated in 1 Corinthians 12 and 1 Corinthians 14). Actually, around that time, I did come across people and articles who said speaking in tongues as from the devil. I felt uncomfortable often because I was reminded of what Jesus in Matthew 12:30-32 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Jesus said this in response to the Pharisees who claimed that He had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute “…by Beelzebub, the prince of demons..."

Anonymous said...

Dear Bob Katter,

Can appreciate your sentiment...haha...I feel like throwing up my hands up in the air - I give up, I think...haha...

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

I will keep sharing true testimonies on the mix of good and evil in these supernatural experiences for the benefit of those who have not yet being deceived that they may know the risks involved before being pushed into it.

This is an extract from a message delivered by a Pastor from Hope Singapore on the topic of Does God speak personally?

"When you sense personally that God has spoken to you by a word of prophecy this has to be confirmed by three people to make sure it is true. You should be especially careful when you receive these types of words of propechy: a) that you will become the primer minister or president of your nation; b)that you are going to marry a specific person (more examples continued)"

Here it is recognized that counterfeit may be present in these supernatural manifestations and thus it has to be "confirmed".

Can you think of a clear example of this happening in the Hope movement?

If not, for those who follow prophecies last year there were three prophecies in charismatic circles stating that Bush will be the last president of the US.

Anonymous said...

You mean Ps. Jeff of Hope Singapore preached that ? I thought that sounds like good advice to get confirmation from others regarding any words of prophecy from other people (those who are walking closely to God of course). In fact, someone said to me that usually God would have spoken to us personally (I think if it is something that important) befor He uses others to confirm to us that it is His Word. If God has not spoken to us personally yet, then, if we do receive any prophecy especially if it is something that can cause drastic change to our life, then it is much better to take time to pray through and seek God further before taking action. This would of course, seeking the counsel of other more mature believers. I think the book "Experiencing God" by Blackaby is good book to read on this... Recommended reading...

God bless !

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

Although I think it is not relevant at all to disclose the name of the Hope Singapore pastor who preached about false prophecies I must say it was not Jeff (he became Senior Pastor after Ben Lee strategically stepped out following the well known events in Hope headquarters) but someone about the same age.

Please note that supernatural counterfeit can not be controlled in any way by those who get involved in these extremely dangerous practices. Some have argued that counterfeit is only present when those who enter into the supernatural are "fleshy" and have wrong motives. However recent experiences show that even pastor and founders of big denominations have been misled by false prophecies. These cases seem to include the founder of the Hope movement.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister,

I am sorry, I should not have jump to conclusion about the preacher. I do believe that it is possible for anyone to be taken in by false prophecies, that is why the apostle John tells us in 1 John 4:1"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Anyway, I would like to know in what way was the founder deceived by a false prophecy ?

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

The founder of Hope was convinced that he was following a specific and individual God's call to enter into politics to become Prime Minister of Thailand and to leave the organizational leadership of Hope. For sure he did not make this decision without confirming it with other people who pressumably had the gift of prophecy.

Anonymous said...

May I know if Ben Lee has left the Hope Movement ?

Anonymous said...

Ben Lee is currently a pastor or director at HIM overseeing North America Hope Churches. HIM President is Simon Eng.

Anonymous said...

I've also experienced practices as described by the bro above :

"But never to dictate to others what to do with their lives like the way I have seen Hope leaders doing... such as telling them that in the interest of spiritual matters, not to go for further studies, to get their consent before committing to a BGR relationship, etc..."

Members are "advised" not to go for further studies at places where there's no Hope Movement, but surprisingly Simon Eng sent his own daughter to Russia for further studies where's there's no Hope Movement there.

Furthermore, if BGR is of concerned, the senior leaders children's BF/GF are also not Christian.

I think the decision of where one would like to go for further education, or their choices of boyfriend/girlfriend should be a personal decision, and I do not agree with Hope leaders requiring members to seek their approval in these personal matters. What's more surprising is these Hope leaders do not even practice what they preach. As if there's one set of rule for them and their family and another set of rule for us the "unenlightened".

In reality, these practices have only one selfish aim, that is to advance in numbers at the expense of the members by keeping members in a Hope movement. Or to prevent Hope members from leaving for another church attended by their boyfriend/girlfriend.

I do not agree that anyone is chosen by God to lead, as the decision to become a leader is made by the person and we as members supported them. It's like eating a dirty foodstall and blaming God after we got diarrhea. But God neither helped the person to set up the foodstall nor encourage us to eat there. God leave the choice to us and the ability to reason.

Anonymous said...

It is bad enough that rules are imposed that the Bible never spoke about and even worst, when double standard is practised...

Anonymous said...

Terrible when double standards are practised blatantly for all to witness.

But it is even worse when double standards are practised secretly on internet blogs.

Anonymous said...

Can the brother or sister explain what he/she meant by what he/she wrote:

"But it is even worse when double standards are practised secretly on internet blogs."

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

This blog is to share experiences with the Hope movement that may help others to prevent spiritual harm.

Although some bloggers who claim to be ex-Hope members are trying to discourage the sharing by ridiculizing, minimizing or questioning the testimonies we should keep in mind that this valuable information definitively will help others.

Anonymous said...

Some words of encouragement from "Day by Day (July 4, 2011)" by Charles R. Swindoll:

"Whatever your circumstances, I want to remind you that our heavenly Father cares about areas of your life that would seem insignificant to a distant deity. He's never too busy to hear your hurts, to wipe away your tears, to whisper words of encouragement, and to put His big shoulder under your load. He's the God who cares about the details.

As I write these words, I'm praying that our sovereign God might be a very personal comfort to you this week. I pray especially for you who are wrestling with loneliness and discouragement. Even though you're surrounded by people, deep within there's an ache. Friend, God can meet your need as only He can, even as He did in the heart of Moses just a few hours before the great man's death."

Anonymous said...

Matthew Henry Commentary On The Whole Bible ('s commentary on Hebrews 13:17 ("Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."):

"…Having thus told us the duty Christians owe to their deceased ministers, which principally consists in following their faith and not departing from it, the apostle tells us what is the duty that people owe to their living ministers (v.17) and the reasons of that duty: (1.) The duty-to obey them, and submit themselves to them. It is not an implicit obedience, or absolute submission, that is here required, but only so far as is agreeable to the mind and will of God revealed in his word; and yet it is truly obedience and submission, and that not only to God, but to the authority of the ministerial office, which is of God as certainly, in all things belonging to that office, as the authority of parents or of civil magistrates in the things within their sphere. Christians must submit to be instructed by their ministers, and not think themselves too wise, too good, or too great, to learn from them; and, when they find that ministerial instructions are agreeable to the written word, they must obey them. (2.) The motives to this duty. [1.] They have the rule over the people; their office, though not magisterial, yet is truly authoritative. They have no authority to lord it over the people, but to lead them in the ways of God, by informing and instructing them, explaining the word of God to them, and applying it to their several cases. They are not to make laws of their own, but to interpret the laws of God; nor is their interpretation to be immediately received without examination, but the people must search the scriptures, and so far as the instructions of their minister are according to that rule they ought to receive them, not as the word of men, but, as they are indeed, the word of God, that works effectually in those that believe. [2.] They watch for the souls of the people, not to ensnare them, but to save them; to gain them, not to themselves, but to Christ; to build them up in knowledge, faith, and holiness. They are to watch against every thing that may be hurtful to the souls of men, and to give them warning of dangerous errors, of the devices of Satan, of approaching judgments; they are to watch for all opportunities of helping the souls of men forward in the way to heaven. [3.] They must give an account how they have discharged their duty, and what has become of the souls committed to their trust, whether any have been lost through their neglect, and whether any of them have been brought in and built up under their ministry. [4.] They would be glad to give a good account of themselves and their hearers. If they can then give in an account of their own fidelity and success, it will be a joyful day to them; those souls that have been converted and confirmed under their ministry will be their joy, and their crown, in the day of the Lord Jesus. [5.] If they give up their account with grief, it will be the people’s loss as well as theirs. It is the interest of hearers that the account their ministers give of them may be with joy, and not with grief. If faithful ministers be not successful, the grief will be theirs, but the loss will be the people’s. Faithful ministers have delivered their own souls, but a fruitless and faithless people’s blood and ruin will be upon their own heads."

Anonymous said...

This blog is stated to be a free discussion forum.

However some of those who argue for absolute freedom of speech also appear to argue that those who have opinions different to their own should remain silent.

So its fine to blog on anything whatsoever as long as you are critical of Hope. On the other hand, if you wish to support Hope in anyway it is best that you remain silent.

Anonymous said...

Honestly speaking, I think we should speak the truth even if it so happen that it may seems favourable to Hope...

To be fair, Hope does have its strengths and I believe I have grown more spiritually in Hope and learnt many things during my years in Hope. They are also many fine people in Hope today, many of whom I still regard as my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ and if we still remain in our faith and commitment to Jesus Christ, I do expect to see them in heaven...

I do agree that people should be allow to express their different views as we are all different and our background and experience are different provided that we do it in the way that does not hurt others... The Bible did say "Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ." Ephsians 4:15

Be encouraged, dear brothers and sisters, to continue to share whatever is helpful to one another...

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

What it appears so confusing is that some bloggers highlight Hope's strenghts and at the same time refuse to share the real reasons that motivated them to leave the Hope movement. Besides, they also like to play the role of critics of other people's testimonies.

Certainly several controversial congregations have many strenghts. For instance Jehova Witnesses (JW)are very disciplined in their work of door to door "evangelism" and their leaders have never been caught in serious moral faults. On the other hand JW refuse to admit that in the past they issue several false prophecies regarding end-time events.

Anonymous said...

Don't mistaken this blog with Hope Movement. It's Hope Movement which only allow a one-sided view of its practices. It's Hope Movement which always tries to silence critics and only allow members to give positive testimonies about it.

Dear Bro and Sis, criticisms here are never targeted against ordinary members at Hope Movement. What are criticized are the controlling policies are Hope Movement, the senior leaders behind these controlling policies and those who blindly supported them. It's these senior leaders that should take the blame.

The bro/sis who says that there are good things about Hope Movement have not even give a single example of the benefits of the controlling practices there.

If we have build close relationships with bro/sis there, we should try our best to explain the real situation at Hope Movement to them. If they are truly our friends, they would still be whether we are still at Hope or not.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Many aspects of this blog are comparable to a kangaroo court convened to put the Hope movement on trial.

We have anonymous accusers. We have so-called witnesses who refuse to be identified let alone cross-examined on their evidence. We have a defendant that is being tried in absentia with no right to counsel or representation, no right of reply to the accusations and no right to compile a defence. To top it off we have self appointed judges that are unqualified, are not impartial and who have pre-judged the case in any event relying on spurious hearsay, supposition and speculation.

Anyone that is a Christian and who participates in this witch hunt ought to be ashamed of themselves. This farce is worse than the Salem witch trials. While the Salem witch trials constituted a monumental miscarriage of justice and the impartiality of the judges could seriously be called into question at least the identity accusers were known, and even the false witnesses there had the guts (stupidity?) to give sworn evidence.

Let me share with you a painful truth. We would be without any hope if the Lord were to judge all of us mercilessly using the principles I have summarized above in precisely the same manner some of us would have us judge the Hope movement.

Anonymous said...

Telling the whole truth too openly may lead to the unmasking of “Bob”.

Anonymous said...

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

"Now all has been heard;

here is the conclusion of the matter:

Fear God and keep his commandments,

for this is the whole [duty] of man.

For God will bring every deed into judgment,

including every hidden thing,

whether it is good or evil."

Anonymous said...

"You are judging me" said a Hope leader when I discretly made enquiries about the biblical grounds of certain Hope practices. Same attitude is observed in this blog by some Hope advocates who are trying to frame all testimonies presented here as an "unfair trial" or a conspiracy against the Hope movement.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Telling the whole truth too openly may lead to the unmasking of “Bob”.

Actually you should be thankful I am not telling the whole truth too openly. If I did so, it would be a written testimony of the grace and generosity of Simon Eng.

Is it really so hard for you to accept that I left the Hope movement on good terms?

Bob Katter's hat said...

‘Same attitude is observed in this blog by some Hope advocates who are trying to frame all testimonies presented here as an "unfair trial" or a conspiracy against the Hope movement.’

Still waiting for someone who is prepared to engage in a proper debate on whether the Hope movement is being treated fairly by those who seek to criticize it on this blog. I have stated the reasons for my conclusions in writing but it seems easier to direct personal abuse at me rather than challenge the validity of the principles or reasons I have stated.

Anonymous said...

Is it too hard to share why did you leave Hope?

Anonymous said...

Learning from David on how to deal with abusive leaders…:

Walking in Victory
by Charles R. Swindoll
Read 1 Samuel 18:8–15
As fear and worry intensified, Saul became paranoid. "What more can he have now but the kingdom?" His self-talk lost control. "Hey, I've got a problem on my hands. Here's a giant-killer who's about to become a king-killer. What can I do about that?" He's afraid of his own shadow.
That's Saul. Within a matter of hours, he "looked at David with suspicion from that day on." When imagination is fueled by jealousy, suspicion takes over . . . and at that point, dangerous things occur.
David has done nothing to deserve that kind of treatment! He has served God, killed a giant, submitted himself to his superior, and behaved properly. In fact, verse 15 says, "When Saul saw that he was prospering greatly, he dreaded him."
Why? Because Saul saw that God was on David's side, and he realized that he, himself, didn't have that kind of power. The contrast was more than he could handle.
The Bible is so practical, isn't it? Jealousy is a deadly sin, and the suspicion of Saul shackled him in its prison. Because he operated in that tight radius of fear, worry, and paranoia, Saul's great goal in life became twisted. Instead of leading Israel onto bigger and better things, he focused on only one objective: making David's life miserable.
Being positive and wise is the best reaction to an enemy. When you see your enemy coming, don't roll up your mental sleeves, deciding which jab you will throw. Remember how David handled Saul. David just kept prospering—just kept behaving wisely. And when the heat rose, he fled the scene. He refused to fight back or get even.
So if you are rubbing shoulders with a jealous individual, whether it be a roommate, a boss, a friend, or even a partner, remember the model of David.
It boils down to this: walking in victory is the difference between what pleases us and what pleases God. Like David, we need to stand fast, to do what is right without tiring of it. Plain and simple, that's what pleases God. And in the final analysis, isn't that why we're left on earth?

Bob Katter's hat said...

I have previously shared in general terms why I left Hope (which is more than most of the other bloggers here have done). If I shared specifically why I left Hope it is likely that my contemporaries would be able to immediately discern my identity even if you probably wouldn’t know of me.

Sharing specifically why I left Hope will probably reveal my identity. Now I’m sure you don’t want to disclose your identity on this blog and will respect the fact that on this aspect you and I share a common desire.

Anonymous said...

The witch hunt is at Hope movement, Bob. Not at this blog. Hope movement tried to cover it up when I tried to question their practices. I was told to shut up. Where's the witch hunt now?

Bob Katter's hat said...

There is no witch hunt taking place on this blog. Just a kangaroo court.

Nor is there a witch hunt taking place in the Hope movement.

There may be some issues in certain Hope churches (those that are specifically identified by name in this blog). However we continue to have bloggers levelling accusations against the whole movement in general even though they have probably never attended a Hope church outside South East Asia. It is akin to accusing someone residing in another country whom you have never met! Sounds unfair to me.

If I am wrong on any of this, feel free to say so. Better if you can challenge my reasoning without personally abusing me or calling me a liar like at least one person has done.

Still waiting for someone who is prepared to engage in a proper debate on whether the Hope movement is being treated fairly by those who seek to criticize it on this blog.

Anonymous said...

Dear Bob Katter's hat and all,

It is certainly a relief to know that the abusive practices present in some of the Malaysian Hope Churches were not practiced in your Hope Church and other Hope Churches that you were aware of (most probably the Western Churches) and I respect your wish to remain anonymous. However, I do have concerns that the Malaysian brother was, in his own words, told to 'shut up' when he spoke up to his leader which probably left him feeling with a sense of grievance at being unfairly treated or even ignored and the sense that there is a cover up even though I do not always agree with all his views.

Actually, I am thinking that by airing all our views on this blog is pretty useless since most probably those parties concerned are not even aware of their wrongdoings and not aware of the existence of this blog or even if they do, they are ignoring it… So, we can debate until the cows come home but what will it achieve ?

I like to think we are spending our time well on this blog in airing our concerns, views, experiences and knowledge. However, I have the suspicious feeling "are we wasting our time ?"

Guo Xiong said...

Hi Bob Katter's hat,

I have always desired that bloggers, including myself, could engage in proper debate about the issues that happened in Hope Movement. But it seems that this would be difficult to achieve in the context of blogging. Personally, I am no longer optimistic and favourable towards blogging as a viable to options to exchange views in a meaningful way.

Nonetheless, I have posted comments on this blog on numerous occasions and had aired my views about Hope Church. I spoke largely from my own experience in Hope Church Singapore and I am not able to comment on other Hope Churches elsewhere in the world. I no longer hold to the unique type of Restoration Theology practiced in Hope Singapore in terms of shepherding system, the type of church governance and structure, and the belief that prophets and apostles are still given by God to the church today, etc. I have since moved on to embrace Reformed Orthodoxy and worhsip in the Presbyterian denomination, as I am now persuaded that the faith and practice in this Christian tradition is most consistent with Holy Scripture.

I have searched for some time for credible and scholarly works that seeks to examine the nature of movements similar to that of Hope. So far, I have only found one scholarly essay that examined to some extent the church structure of the original Hope Church under Kriengsak in Thailand, and the author utilised a patron-client framework to analyse how leaders relate to the members within Hope Movement. Beyond that, there is not much articles that examine Hope movement in detail.

I understand that you desire a fair examination of Hope movement. I too also hope that this would take place in the near future. I respect the views you have shared in this blog, even though my Reformed convictions inclines me to conclude that charismatic/pentecostal teachings, such as some aspects of Hope teachings, are hardly compatible with Holy Scripture.

I certainly do not wish this blog to become a "kangaroo court". I understand your exasperation about the fact that much grievances and unwholesome words have been spewed in this blog. I also have my fair share of hurt and grievances that I experienced during my time in Hope Singapore, but it certainly not appropriate for me to mention in detail my experiences in Hope Church.

I do hope that this blog would steer towards the edification of the saints.

Guo xiong.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Hello Guo Xiong,

Your contributions on this blog have always well expressed and reasoned. I have no issue with the way you express your views. It is all fairly within the realm of fair comment in my view. We may not agree on everything (it is after all uncommon for any two people to agree on everything) but on the most fundamental aspects I think we are on the same wave length.

“I also have my fair share of hurt and grievances that I experienced during my time in Hope Singapore, but it certainly not appropriate for me to mention in detail my experiences in Hope Church”

Unlike some of the other bloggers I think you know where to draw the line between appropriateness and inappropriateness. Like you I also had my fair share of hurts and grievances that I experienced during my time in the Hope movement. Like you it is not appropriate for me to mention in detail my bad experiences in the Hope movement. Particularly since there were also many other good experiences – some of which I have detailed previously.

A relationship with a human being and a relationship with a church have this in common – there will be highs and lows. It is unrealistic in a sinful world to expect otherwise.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Hello again Guo Xiong

“I understand your exasperation about the fact that much grievances and unwholesome words have been spewed in this blog.”

Some of my earlier contributions will show that I have no objection to people airing their grievances on this blog. If participating on this blog leads to forgiveness and healing for some that would be a terrific outcome. The issue I have with some bloggers is how those grievances are aired. You have correctly stated that many unwholesome words have been “spewed in this blog”. That is absolutely correct. Another point I keep mentioning is the disingenuous tendency to extrapolate specific incidents with specific persons into a damning indictment on the entire movement. A third point would be the defamatory remarks that have been made here under the cloak of anonymity which is particularly reprehensible in the Christian context.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Third and last installment Guo Xiong,

To be frank, I do not seek a debate on the rights and wrongs of the Hope movement. There are definitely rights and there are definitely wrongs depending on where we look and much can properly be expressed here within the realm of fair comment.

The debate I was mentioning would be limited to a proper debate on whether the Hope movement is being treated fairly by those who seek to criticize it on this blog using the unwholesome words you have mentioned. In my view fair and constructive criticism is welcome but other types of criticism have no place on this blog. Some may disagree. The challenge for them is to provide valid reasons for their views instead of simply abusing me or calling me a liar.

I’m going off line for a week and a bit to rest under the shade of my hat. In an ideal world absolutely nothing earth shattering will happen on this blog in my absence but I will not be holding my breath.

Take care.

Anonymous said...

We have tried to voice our concerns to the movement's leaders but was given excuses like "dont touch the Lord's anointed". That's why many resorted to voicing their concerns here in frustration, maybe even thinking members still at Hope after reading this blog, could bring about changes to Hope movement. Thus I do not feel it's a waste of time by posting here. But it's much preferable that senior bro sis like those found here, who is more knowledgeable about how Hope functions, have matured thinking, with access to the leaders at Hope, bring our concerns directly to them.

Some bloggers here tend to discuss every issue specifically in details but seems to miss the large picture. The main issue is that by merely being a volunteer DO NOT subject members to the wishes of Hope leaders in matters concerning private life. Thus, SHEPHERDING is a main concern. The fact that it's still practiced at Hope, means much still need to be done. Seniors here could help bro sis still there by writing to the Hope leaders or meeting up with them directly.

Hope movement in malaysia actually have the fewest attendance among Thailand and Singapore Hope. I'm from one of these branches, though i also went before to other branches in its vicinity. These branches are numerous especially in the city center, so numerous that resources and man power are spread excessively thin. In order to make these branches self supportive, monetary donations are certainly a major concern. When hard pressed, it's hard to say how far these leaders will go to secure more members. Coupled with branch leaders whom aren't always qualified to lead, almost all with no seminary education, and when everything hangs on the line, it's either DO or DISBAND, i dread to think how far they would go.

A senior leader here even tried to pressure newcomers to "accept christ" just after the second or third visit. The leader do this by pin pointing the newcomer one by one in front of all the attendees on sunday while kept asking them whether they want to "accept christ", to the extend of even inquiring the reason should the newcomer refuse. Obviously a desperate attempt to increase membership. When membership numbers are largely stagnant, it's doubtful too if these Hope leaders will act fairly should there are complaints of shepherds and cell leaders abusing their authority. It's rather a no-brainer that these leaders will try to downplay the complaints and side with members who are deemed loyal. In such circumstances, the shepherding practice itself becomes much more destructive. The usual "follow-up" should members try to leave also goes without much explanation needed. Seniors here, please find a way to discuss the matter of shepherding with these Hope leaders. Please help us. We have tried bringing up matters with them with no results. Don't blog here, but please find ways to talk to them directly.

Anonymous said...

Actually, I do think some of the brother/sister's observations may be quite true due to the circumstances that he/she shared.

The leaders have to cover for the leaders under them due to the 'loyalty' teaching (a heritage of the original Hope Movement) and leaders cannot now back down to acknowledge that what the teachings they have embraced from the original Hope Movement over the years may not have been so right after all. To now acknowledge now would be to lose face and I suspect they would be more concerned that that they would lose the confidence of those they have taught over the years.

This 'loyalty' teaching which is meant for protection of Hope leaders and whatever things Hope is supposed to be something good but not when it is being abused to cover up wrongdoings and wrongdoers.

If indeed the brother/sister did confront the leaders concerned but they did to do nothing, then it confirms what I have personally heard about some of these things.

Actually, like the brother/sister, I was thinking that it would be good if someone can contact the leaders in Hope Malaysia to discuss what had been aired in this blog but after the comments from the bro/sis,I guess it will be an exercise in the futility...

This is truly sad because I have entertained the hopeful thoughts that Hope could change... But now I doubt so... If that is the case, then we should all move on...

However, having said this, I will take into account what the bro/sis also said, that hopefully, there are those who can still benefit from our blogging on this blog such as ex-Hope members and current Hope members...

Anonymous said...

Don't look too highly on them leaders at Hope. That's how they maintain that aura that they are "anointed". If bro or sis here would like to talk to them about anything, just go and say, just as you would to an equal.

Anonymous said...

It is my belief that leaders of Hope Malaysia are aware of this blog and I hope that they will take time to have a serious study of the issues that brought up here in this blog which I think boils down to two main things: the abuses of the shepherding system and abuse of authority.

I hope that they will follow the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts 15 to deal with the issues brought up as it affect precious lives of brothers and sisters...

Anonymous said...

Shall we learn from Paul to put the past behind ?:
Day by Day - July 11, 2011
Humility by Charles R. Swindoll
"I forget what is behind" is a statement that assures us Paul was not the type to live in the past. He says, in effect, "I disregard my own accomplishments as well as others' offenses against me. I refuse to dwell on that." This requires humility.
This becomes especially clear when you examine Paul's past. Just look:

"Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure."
(2 Corinthians 11:24–27)

Think of all the people Paul could have included on his "hate list." But he had no such list. With humility, he forgot what was behind him. He intentionally disregarded all those wrongs against him.

In order for us to forget wrongs done against us, God must do the erasing. (See Joseph's example in Genesis 41:51.) Isaiah, the prophet of Judah, puts it in these terms:

"Fear not, for you will not be put to shame;
And do not feel humiliated, for you will not be disgraced;
But you will forget the shame of your youth,
And the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.
For your husband is your Maker,
Whose name is the LORD of hosts;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel,
Who is called the God of all the earth." (Isaiah 54:4–5)

The Lord God promises us we can forget, because He personally will take the place of those painful memories.

To you who have had a shameful youth, to you who have lost your mate, the living Lord will replace those awful memories with Himself. What a great promise! That makes the forgetting possible. Left to ourselves, no way! But with the promise that God will replace the pain with Himself—His presence, His power, His very life—we can "forget what lies behind."

Anonymous said...

Learning from the great apostle Paul, continuing from yesterday:

Day by Day - July 12, 2011
Determination by Charles R. Swindoll
Philippians 3:14
I love the apostle Paul's attitude revealed in his words: "I press on toward the goal" (Philippians 3:14).
Those men and women who refuse to get bogged down in and anchored to the past are those who pursue the objectives of the future. People who do this are rarely petty. They are too involved in getting a job done to be preoccupied with yesterday's hurts and concerns.

Very near the end of his full and productive life, Paul wrote: "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7). What a grand epitaph! He seized every day by the throat. He relentlessly pursued life.

I know human nature well enough to realize that some people excuse their bitterness over past hurts by thinking, It's too late to change. I've been injured, and the wrong done against me is too great for me ever to forget it. Maybe Paul could press on—but not me!

A person with this mind-set is convinced he or she is the exception to the truths of God's Word. This individual is determined not to change because "life has dealt him or her a bad hand."

Nothing could be further from the truth.

When God holds out hope, when God makes promises, when God says, "It can be done," there are no exceptions. With each new dawn, there is delivered to your door a fresh, new package called "today." God has designed us in such a way that we can handle only one package at a time . . . and He gives us all the grace we need for each day as we live out that day (Matthew 6:11, 34).

Like Paul did, seize every day by the throat. Relentlessly pursue life.

Anonymous said...

Another encouraging devotional from Charles Swindoll...may it encourage those who have need of it:

Day by Day - July 13, 2011
Two Questions
by Charles R. Swindoll
Psalm 42:11
Comparing the acts of forgiving and forgetting, I think forgetting is the tougher assignment.
Why? Because forgetting is something shared with no other person. It's a solo flight. All the rewards are postponed until eternity . . . but how great they will be on that day!

Forgetting requires us as Christians to think correctly, which means our full focus must be on the Lord and not on people. By God's great grace, it can happen.

Before we move on, let's pause long enough to ask ourselves two questions:

First, is there someone or something I have refused to forget, which keeps me from being happy and productive? If your answer is yes, stop right now and declare it openly to your Lord. Ask Him to take away the pain and the bitterness.

Second, am I a victim of self-pity, living out my days emotionally paralyzed by anguish and despair? If your answer is yes, stop and consider the consequences of living the rest of your life excusing your self-pity rather than turning it all over to the only One who can remove it. As the Psalmist wrote:

Why are you in despair, O my soul?
And why have you become disturbed within me?
Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him,
The help of my countenance and my God. (Psalm 42:11)

It is not "too late" . . . you are not "too old to change" . . . and your situation is not "too much to overcome."

Truth be told, it is never too late to start doing what is right.


Anonymous said...

The Spirit Filled Bible (NKJV)’s version of Hebrews 13:17 (“Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”) has the following explanatory notes:

“Christians are only to remember past church leaders (v.7), but are to heed present leaders who are responsible in discharging their duties in providing spiritual oversight to the congregation. The obedience commanded denotes assenting to someone else’s directions, and submission means yielding one’s contrary opinions in favor of another’s. The writer does not suggest blind, unquestioning obedience to everything a leader says, even in decisions pertaining to changing jobs, making purchases, taking a trip and the like. The NT teaches the necessity of discernment (1 John 4:1), personal accountability to God (Rom. 14:12; Gal.6:5), and mutual submission (Rom.12:10; Gal.5:13; Eph.5:21; Phil.2:3,4). Furthermore, church leaders are not autocratic chiefs who lord it over the congregation, but are servants who exercise authority with concern and care (see Rom.12:8; 1 Thess.5:12,13; 1 Tim.3:5; 5:17).”

Anonymous said...

Sharing some thoughts: Why is it that when the people of the world are increasingly objecting to autocracy as we can see in events around the world and yet there are Christian leaders who claim to practise it under the guise of divine authority when this is contrary to what was taught by our Lord Jesus Christ to His disciples ?

We see this in Matthew 20:25-28 “Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."”

We see how even the great apostle Paul in his letters would often appeal to the believers that he was writing to rather than commanding them as if of right. We see for example how he wrote to Philemon, “Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do, yet I appeal to you on the basis of love.” (Philemon 1:8,9) And then in verses 13-14 “I would have liked to keep him with me so that he could take your place in helping me while I am in chains for the gospel. But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do will be spontaneous and not forced.”

This is very much in the spirit of what some advocates of the meaning of ‘obey’ in Hebrew 13:17 as ‘being persuaded to obey’. In Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament, the word ‘obey’ as used in Hebrew 13:17 is ‘peitho’ I quote what was written there "to persuade, to win over," in the Passive and Middle Voices, "to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey," is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice, e.g., in Acts_5:36-37 (in Acts_5:40, Passive Voice, "they agreed"); Rom_2:8; Gal_5:7; Heb_13:17; James_3:3. The "obedience" suggested is not by submission to authority, but resulting from persuasion.”

I admit that as one who is working in the world that practising authoritarism is common in the world because it is the easiest way to get results quicker but we have to be mindful that when we serve in the Church, we are not the people of the world. We are serving God and His people and those people who serve under our so called authority are also doing so voluntarily without expectation of payment, and doing it out of love for God and His people. So, let us who are leaders be mindful of this.

Have a blessed Sunday...God bless !

Anonymous said...

The bro/sis above are certainly knowledgeable. Such convincing explanation yet remained humble. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

I refer to ‘Anonymous’ comments on July 10, 2011 1:00 AM and offer the following thoughts:

If there is wrong doings in the Hope Churches in Malaysia as claimed by the brothers and sisters, it is my hope that the leaders will be willing to at investigate and admit to it so that changes can be made.

Recently it came out in the news regarding the telephone hacking scandal in the UK actually led to none other than British Prime Minister David Cameron to say that the decision to hire Andy Coulson as his communications chief was his alone and he took full responsibility for it when it Coulson was arrested recently on suspicion of phone hacking and making payments to police. I am reminded of how last year, the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales finally made a press statement to apologize for the failings of some of the Bishops and religious leaders in handling the child abuse that took place within the churches. Eventually, the Pope finally admitted that the Roman Catholic must accept responsibility for it.

We see world leaders who are willing to take responsibility for the actions of those under them so I think that it will be truly a great act of humility for Hope leaders to take responsibility for the actions of those under them.

I am reminded of another recent incident which happened in Malaysia where the board of a hospital claimed that during the rally on the 9th July, 2011, no tear gas canisters and water cannons were fired directly into the hospital compound. Yet the next day or so, a group of doctors of the said hospital announced that they were prepared to provide sworn affidavits to say that police had fired tear gas and chemical-laced water into the compounds. It must have been an embarrassing situation for the hospital board. In the same way, it is my humble opinion that it is far better if the leaders of Hope look into the allegations rather than be found to be otherwise.

When I was in Hope, I was taught by my leaders the principles of the life of the priest Eli in 1 Samuel 2:12-36 that we are to take responsibility for the actions of those under us, even if they are family members lest we come under God’s judgment as what happened to Eli and his family. I hope the leaders of Hope remember what they taught us.

I share all the above with no evil intentions except wrongs can be made right, for the sake of God's Kingdom.

God bless !

Eagle_eye said...

Dear all,

I have not checked up on the blog for awhile as i have been busy with work. But i am surprised that there are still issues that have yet to be resolved.

I would probably need some time to read through some of the allegations and issues.

It does seem like the issue is mainly targeted at HIM .

As previous practice as there are over 258 Comments. I shall try to summarise it and put it in a post.

Bob Katter's hat said...

Dear Eagle Eye,

Now that you have checked the happenings on this blog, I would like to add my support to John's earlier call that you moderate all posts, get rid of this blog entirely or get rid of all offensive posts that have been added to this blog in the past months and moderate all new posts.

All respectable blogs are moderated and it needs to happen here if this blog is to continue. Defamatory remarks and anonymous personal attacks cannot in all good conscience be permitted to flourish here.

Please act accordingly without delay.

Anonymous said...

Good that finally Eagle eye has made his/her appearance in this blog...

Yes, quite in agreement with what Bob Katter's hat said except the part about doing away with this blog... The censorship will really help, I believe... though I suppose there will always be individuals who have views strongly different from ours and I dont think we can censor that otherwise it will somehow curtail freedom of speech and expression...

However, having said that, I am to state clearly that I am not for foul language nor language that put others down nor defaming others unless they can substantiate their claims...

And yes, Eagle eye, would always be glad to hear your views on the comments so far and your updates on the latest happenings of the Hope Churches in the world since the last time you posted which was quite some months back...

In particular, would be grateful if you can share whether there have been changes within the Hope Churches as I understand from your last post that you are still with the Hope Church, not which country...

Thank you and God bless !

Anonymous said...

A blogger by the name of 'steadyaku47' wrote this in his blog:

"In closing I want to say this. I am not really that interested in "talking" with like minded people because then you start thinking that your views is always bring on the doubters and let us go head to head on any issues…"

Perhaps there is truth in that…

Anonymous said...

If everything's well, who in their sane mind would want to vent their frustrations here, these people are hurt, some more than others, we could never have known the full extent how come members are abused cause many are not from the same branch.

Bro Bob Katter are right to ask us to be courteous, but I hope bro Bob please sympathize with some bro sis here whom are burdened by much mental anguish from the abuses. Many posts here though shared in bitterness, are in fact nonetheless true and not slanderous. Those from the same branch could certainly concur.

Please regulate this blog by all means, but if this blog are entirely deleted, many bro sis will suffer the same fate as us before. Hope leaders may try to silence critics at their movement, but they could never have silence this blog, if this blog is gone, how would we do check and balance to Hope leaders?

Anonymous said...

Strange as it may seems, I just read the following verses in my daily devotional:

Lev 19:16-17:

"'Do not go about spreading slander among your people."'Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor's life. I am the LORD. "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.”

The author of the devotional is of the view that whether the report is true or false, we are forbidden to spread it. We may however rebuke the brother to his face.

Would it help if no names are mentioned ? As for the rebuke part, I am not sure how it can be done seeing that they are leaders and even if anyone is courageous enough to do that, with strong loyalty teaching in Hope, it will be the words of the dissidents against the leaders’ words, who would you support if you are a Hope leader or member ?

Though the brother/sister above thinks that the blog can be a mean of ‘check and balance’ on Hope leaders, which is what I also hope (which is why I am spending time on this blog), however, in reality, are we hoping for too much ? Being in Hope for so long and so knowing how Hope leaders think and work, I doubt Hope leaders have time to read the comments in this blog let alone entertain them. It is most likely to be ignored or covered up. To this day, don’t be surprised that many Hope members have no idea as to the true reasons that led to the split of the Hope Movement leading to the formation of HIM. I doubt if they also know of the existence of this blog.

Like one of the earlier blogger suggest, it would be more effective if someone whose word carry weight can talk to the Hope leaders or even share with them the comments posted in this blog and ask for an investigation. (Perhaps Eagle Eye or someone or a group can arrange for it…) Unless that happens, I fear that our blogging are all in vain except perhaps for psychological reasons, in that, at least we get it off our chest and help to carry each others’ pain through this blog…

My two cents thoughts and just my opinion only…

Have a blessed Sunday. May God speak to you and comfort you. May God give healings to the broken hearted…God bless !

Anonymous said...

The experiences of members varies depending on the branch they have been to, thus many sharing here although varied could also be true. The policies of the flagship branch or main branch will certainly echoes throughout other branches elsewhere. Previously, this main branch is at Bangkok, now it's at Petaling Jaya. If a branch disagrees with the policies from the main branch, they would have split long ago.

Some members though more senior but if they are not from relevant branches couldn't have known for sure the practices there. If members couldn't meet up with the movement's senior leader himself and voicing their concerns, they would do better by saving their breath and look forward to attend sunday elsewhere, at least temporarily to compare for themselves the practices.

The real motive of the aggressive planting policies of PJ branch are indeed doubtful. How would the senior leader make sure abuses doesn't happen in these many small branches, lead by unqualified leaders, left struggling to survive, or maybe the senior leader are more concerned with numbers than the members' welfare? At the very least a committee consisting of standing members has to be set up, not under the senior leader's authority, but to oversee the paid leaders instead. But when such basic process such as setting up a committee is resisted even in the main branch, instead choosing to concentrate the authority in the leaders hand, when it comes to smaller branches, i dread to think what would happen.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister who wrote "But when such basic process such as setting up a committee is resisted even in the main branch, instead choosing to concentrate the authority in the leaders hand, when it comes to smaller branches, i dread to think what would happen."

Are you saying there has been attempts to suggest the setting up of such a committee and it was resisted ? Would be glad for your kind clarification...

Thank you...

I think your suggestion of attending another Church to make comparisons is a good suggestion. Far too long, Hope teachings that I know of is that Hope is the best, Hope knows best and members are discouraged from attending other Churches...Now I am wondering if is this so when my Bible never say that we cannot do that...

In fact, I am now attending another Church and I am learning new things... We cannot possibly think that we know everything... There are always good and bad things outside Hope, we take the good and discard the bad and we should do that for the Hope Church, we discard the bad and adopt the good that we can learn from others... Why can't we be humble and acknowledge that we can be wrong even if the teachings come from none other than Dr. J himself...

Sometimes they dont even practise what they preach from the Philosophy of Minstries. For example, they said leadership should arise from with the Church and yet many a times, from what I hear, they post leaders from elsewhere to take over the local congregation... it is no wonder that many problems start to arise and in one instant, I was told from the horse's mouth that the existing leaders were asked to resign. I suppose those leaders were those who failed to fall in line with the new leader's wishes...

Anonymous said...

I concur with the bro above that Hope always say they are the best and know the best for others. If even this type of thinking is not cultic, I really don't know what is.

Without a committee, are the movement supposed to be run like a private company? The donations collected are suppose to be used for charitable purposes. Senior leaders cannot make a profit out of it, other than the salary they are paid. It's only prudent to set up a committee. Considering the situation in HIM movement now, who should decide the amount of pay for the senior leaders? do the senior leaders decide their own pay? who is entrusted with the donations and the assets? the absurdity just goes on and on. can senior bro sis here explain how this is going to work?

Anonymous said...

Seriously though to the owner of the blog here, what changes are we suppose to expect in HIM movement? isn't this the very same movement from the previous one, minus a few leaders? are they now more open to criticism? do they still berate u when u leave or visit other places or attend some other talks? are we still suppose to give our best effort, all our time and money only to this single movement? do we still need to obey the leaders unquestioningly? do they still preach obedience brings forth blessings? is the senior leader now still called the lord's anointed? Seriously, what has changed?

After they slept on the same bed for years, NOW only they complain the other smells funny and wants to divorce? all these are shows put up to save what's left of their movement.

Fool me once shame on u, fool me again, shame on me!

Anonymous said...

Some blogger mentioned earlier on that Hope Singapore has a better system of checks and balance and accountability by virtue of Singapore Laws. Can anyone verify if this is true and how it works ? Surely Hope Malaysia can learn from this ?

Yes, I too would be most grateful if Eagle Eye who said he is still in Hope, can share whether there has been any real changes in HIM, not just cosmetic changes just to distance itself from the old Hope Movement...

Anonymous said...

Who could continue supporting this HIM movement after going through the abuses, don't they care that others might suffer the same fate?

The owner of the blog here and some others who contributed that thinks that HIM movement can change may not have been to a Hope Malaysia branch for themselves. I felt the practice of forcing others to be submissive to their authority, this alone, has gone way too far for this HIM movement to amount to anything positive.

Anyone who has been to a Hope Malaysia branch has to speak up before people think the problems are limited to Hope Thailand branches. The practice of using cell leaders and shepherds to do much of the shepherding, follow-up and other heavy handed policies, put these young leaders in a risky spot. The senior leaders will wash their hands clean when complains are made against them. It is these shepherds and cell leaders who would take the fall. Some people are naturally gifted in using pretty words. That's why some people are more charismatic than others. We naturally like these charismatic people more. Just consider the facts behind these pretty and inspiring words, are there anything worthwhile to work for?

Anonymous said...

I couldn't understand the reason why this movement is so eager to expand to so many places, especially when attendance numbers in their home branches didn't really grow.

How are they suppose to gather funds to support their overseas expansion? No wonder they are so aggressive in asking u to join them, and so opposed when u leave. No wonder they try to utilize all the help they can get, just kept adding more and more leaders with little concern for the quality.

It's important to realize spreading the gospel is not about planting one of your own branch everywhere in the world. The quality of these branches does matter a lot. It's much better to have a few branches which are sincerely concerned of its members wellbeing than many many sub standard branches. I personally felt HIM movement doesn't really acknowledge the contribution of other churches in spreading the gospel. As if they alone are correct. Why not just give your best even though just a few branches. Do the contribution to other church matter little to HIM movement? To these HIM movement leaders, the end justify the means.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister who wrote on July 27, 2011 11:29 AM,

I can sense your frustrations with Hope and wish that everybody will leave Hope when they know the truth. However, the reality is that many people will not leave Hope for various reasons. In fact, I do know there are Hope members who are aware of the existence of this blog but they are still in Hope. Many people will remain in Hope even if they know about what is shared openly in this blog for the possibly some of the following reasons:

1. Relationships. Many Hope members have established good relationship with brothers and sisters in Hope. In fact this is one strength of Hope. Hope has always encouraged relationship with people within the Church rather than outside and it is not surprising that most Hope’s friends come within Hope itself and they do activities together all the time, Church activities and outside activities. Furthermore, there are so many activities and ministries within Hope that most Hope members hardly have time nor opportunity to get to know people well outside the Church. Hope also do not encourage you to join other churches’s functions and insists that Hope’s priorities must come first and you know that Hope’s activities happen throughout the week – Sunday service, leaders’ meetings, leaders’ training meetings on Sundays, shepherding with your shepherd on Monday or Tuesday, Wednesday is care group, Thursday will be shepherding with your sheep, prayer meeting on Friday (thankfully they left Saturday free for family and preparation for Sunday service). When you think about it, do you have time for forming relationship with anybody else outside Hope Church ? It is therefore very hard for a Hope member to leave Hope because if he/she leaves, he/she finds that he/she has few friends outside Hope (which is what I am finding out now since leaving Hope). He/she may leave for a while but after a while, he/she will be drawn back to Hope at the invitation of Hope brothers and sisters.
2. Many people don’t like change. I think you have heard of how a battered wife with still stay with her abusive husband because her life with her husband is all that she ever know of. Many Hope people will not leave because they will leaving the familiar with the unfamiliar especially coupled with the fact that they don’t have many friend outside Hope which makes them lonely so even though Hope has flaws, but it is better than being alone. Loneliness will drive him/her back to Hope.

To be continued below:

Anonymous said...

Continued from above:

3. Indoctrination of Hope’s type of teachings. They convinced you that what they are doing is biblical and therefore the will of God. Many people will stay in Hope because they are convinced they are doing the will of God. They are afraid to leave because they think they are leaving the will of God or being disobedient to God if they were to leave Hope. Many of Hope’s teaching are supported by Bible verses which are selected to prove their teachings and many members are not like the Bereans, just readily accept Hope’s teachings on divine authority. Hope teaches that to go against leaders will bring judgment on you like how God brought judgment on the sons of Korah for rising up against Moses. They will recount many stories of how God brought judgment on this person or that person who speak again Hope leaders. With this type of teachings, who dares to question the leaders’ teachings even when they feel something is not right ? One commonly taught teaching is that we still have to obey the leader even if he/she is wrong because he/she is accountable to God. Is that teaching biblical ? Nobody dares to question that teaching because it will show that you are challenging your leader, God’s anointed one. Do you dare to do that ?

4. Hope’s shepherding system. Hope’s shepherding system is actually a system of controlling people. However, it is made to look biblical following Moses’s example in the book of Exodus. I’ve never thought of it that way because to me, shepherding was a good thing but over time, I discover that more and more it was to control people, first by the shepherd and than the leaders of the Church because I soon discover that whatever thing a sheep may share, the shepherd would report all to his/her shepherd who would report to the care group leader and he/she in turn report to his/her shepherd, the church leader, right to the coordinator/pastor, whoever it happens to be. “Wayward” sheep will be made to see the care group leader and if that fails, he/she will end up meeting the coordinator/pastor. If that is not control, what is ? (Even in the world, there is such thing as respecting the privacy/confidentiality of others in counselor/counselee, client and professionals situations but not Hope, where duty to report is more important than privacy. I have found out many instances where information was shared with certain leaders in confidence becoming public knowledge very soon. Hope has really gone into error on this. They should repent). When there is a system of control like this, it is very difficult to leave the Church. For example, if a member did not turn for care group, his/her shepherd will ask why. Then, the care group leader will step in and finally the coordinator/pastor. When they know you are wanting to leave, of course, they will promise you this and that, how do you leave ? It is not easy to leave Hope.

It is for the reason that many brothers and sisters will not leave Hope that we have hoped and pray that changes will come to Hope. It is for the new people who will continue to be led to join Hope by the existing Hope people that we hope change will come to Hope...

We do not want them to suffer as we suffered that we have hoped and pray that Hope will change...It must change and I pray to God that it will change !

Anonymous said...

Recently, Prince William is reported to have said to two of Rupert Murdoch's top executives about the hacking of his aides' phones: "it would have been nice if someone at the time had apologised."

I can say that it would be nice if HIM can apologise for its leaders’ wrongdoings.

Anonymous said...

The bro 2 comments above, where are u from?

We all need friends really. Though more doesn't always means good. We couldn't get everyone to like us. With some people we feel comfortable with them and they with us. Some just the opposite. That's alright too, since we all are different in our own ways. There are always people who would enjoy our company and vice versa, we should just be ourselves as long as it's not negative traits. If our friends at Hope really enjoyed our company they will still find us if we leave, if they find us just to ask us to return, then at least we know....

Whether these Hope members want to leave is up to them really. Members should be aware that being appointed a "leader" by Hope senior leaders doesn't make u a leader, it just makes u a proxy to the senior leaders, how do u know if you are a leader? If those whom u lead follow u willingly and u enjoyed their trust and confidence, then u are their leader. Leaders are elected not appointed. Proxies are appointed. No leaders can demand people to follow them. If some doesn't follow u, then just accept it.

At a larger scale, a much more serious consequence is should these abusive practices continue in the name of whatever Hope leaders wrongly claim to represent, the good works of others in the same name would be tainted and pull down together. Others that do their work sincerely and quietly will be stereotyped for something they didn't do.

I hope bro and sis here look beyond the walls of a church, (any church) in their search for God. But I don't mean asking people to stop attending Sundays. Just don't limit your search to know more about God on Sundays. Try doing a good deed to someone without expecting anything in return. Try volunteering for a cause that benefit your local community. Try loving yourself for who u are. Try listening to others' opinion and voice out your own. There's so much to be known and experienced out there, how would anyone who has your best interest in mind try to stop u from that?

Anonymous said...

What our bro/sis say about indoctrination is very much related to peer pressure. That means when nobody in your group is criticizing the senior leader, you will think twice if u want to criticize, simply because should u criticize, u would be the odd one in that group, at this juncture your criticism are suppressed unknowingly to yourself, when it's suppressed for a long period of time, u are actually been unknowingly conditioned into obeying the senior leader.

That's why Hope leaders try so hard to put it down at the first hint of criticism, because criticism are infectious. If u see someone has the courage to say something that's wrong, u just have the urge to bring out something that u disagree with.

I personally don't think these organization structure are just that way haphazardly. Somehow there's a hunch that it's a well thought scheme to keep u in their movement for a long long time and expanding their movement this way.

Anonymous said...

For the bro/sis who wrote “I personally don't think these organization structure are just that way haphazardly. Somehow there's a hunch that it's a well thought scheme to keep u in their movement for a long long time and expanding their movement this way.”

In case the bro/sis has missed it, Blogger Guo xiong wrote the following on July 8, 2011 9:51 PM:

“I have searched for some time for credible and scholarly works that seeks to examine the nature of movements similar to that of Hope. So far, I have only found one scholarly essay that examined to some extent the church structure of the original Hope Church under Kriengsak in Thailand, and the author utilised a patron-client framework to analyse how leaders relate to the members within Hope Movement. Beyond that, there is not much articles that examine Hope movement in detail…”

May be you can read the article he was talking about and form your conclusion... Dr. Kriengsak is a very learned man and it is unlikely that he is not aware of the dynamics of the patron-client framework…

Anonymous said...

In my opinion, the quality and character of a Christian leader are of utmost importance and he/she must be a leader who is biblical and not so much whether people are willing to follow him/her. David Koresh had a sizeable followings but he led them to destruction. We see Moses was a man who on many occasions faced situations where followers refused to follow him after coming out of Egypt but he was truly God's appointed leader.

Anonymous said...

Christian leaders who practise authoritarianism should be made to see that they are not following biblical model of leadership. Furthermore, if not confronted, their authoritarian style of leadership will be followed by those they lead who in turn lead others to do the same as per the principle in 2 Timothy 2:1, spawning generations of unbiblical leadership… Therefore, the effect of a person or group who practised unbiblical style of leadership is of a much longer term implication than we imagine because it is not limited to the person or group who is practising it now, but the spirit of the example set by these leaders will be passed on to others who are their followers…

Therefore, any God fearing leader(s) who is aware that he/she is practising authoritarianism or any form of unbiblical leadership should put a stop to it immediately…

Anonymous said...

Dear bro sis above,

I find that in our Asian culture, we are sort of timid. Furthermore there's always this mentality amongst us that it's better to be offended than to offend others, and it's alright if people take a little advantage of us, etc etc.

I trusted many Hope members know of the abuses right in front of their eyes. Maybe a member is being taken advantage by the shepherd. Maybe a member is being lambasted when he is found to be attending another seminar or visit to another church. Unfortunately in our Asian culture, we seldom find the courage to stand up for what is right, as our parents always also tell us, it's better to have one less problem than more one problem.

Many members who are unsatisfied with the movement may chose the simple way to stop attending Hope altogether. But if the previous members has gathered the courage to confront these abusive leaders, we wouldn't have to go through such disappointment now. If we don't stand up for others when they are wrongly persecuted, who will be left to stand up for us when we are wrongly persecuted? I hope bro sis who's still at Hope or at any church, stand up and have the courage to say something when injustice are being done. It sounds simple when said, but extremely hard to carry out. But when one of us have the courage to speak up for something that is right, it may caught on to others.

Anonymous said...

I doubt the HIM movement leader now Simon Eng do not know the shortcomings of compelling members to be accountable even in personal matters to a shepherd. This shepherd is accountable to another shepherd and to another, so in fact this pyramid system of authority goes right up to Simon Eng.

The assigned shepherd may took advantage of the member for his own benefits. A very simple example, the shepherd may borrow money from the sheep, asking to buy direct sales products, etc when the sheep refuse, the shepherd could make life a nightmare for the sheep should the sheep still remain at Hope.

In all seriousness, does the senior leader really entertain complains made against his appointed proxies, so much so in a time when the senior leader is desperate to grow his movement? For the senior leader to rebuke a loyal follower is akin to shooting himself in the foot. The loyal follower will be dissatisfied with the senior leader and wouldn't abide to the senior leader's instructions as much as before. Worse still, the sheep who made the complain are dissatisfied with the movement already and is at the verge of leaving. So in fact, for the leader to rebuke a shepherd is a double loss for him. Long time members and shepherds know this game, and will play it to their benefits.

It's laughable to think these Hope leader will give u a fair trial. If u are useful and willing to advance their movement for free, they'll do all they can to keep u. But if u don't subscribe to their teachings, have your own independent thinking, even if you're right, they wouldn't give u a damn.

Anonymous said...

What the brother above shared reminded me of the following quotes:

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Edmund Burke (British Statesman and Philosopher, 1729-1797)

"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out."

Attributed to Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niem̦ller (14 January 1892 Р6 March 1984), Protestant pastor and social activist.

Anonymous said...

For the brother/sister who posted on August 1, 2011 7:37 AM, I would like to say that I agree with you about us Asian being non-confrontational as this is part of our culture and upbringing.

However, I think you need not lambaste yourself for failing to confront those abusive leaders while in Hope because I believe that it would be futile. Hope teaches that it knows best and obedience to divine authority will not allow you to confront them because they will not accept it. With that sort of mentality, like what the other brother/sister who posted on July 30, 2011 10:18 AM said, we would be the odd one out. However, it was only when Hope Movement split that I think HIM leaders begin to realise that there are questionable teachings and practices by Hope Movement.

However, I think that at present, there is still no crisis as big as that of the Hope Movement split in Malaysia that will warrant them taking action to deal with the authoritarianism and the consequential spiritual abuses of leadership and I fear we may have to wait for some time… From my understanding of the paedophile catholic priests scandal that exploded last year, it seemed that the abuses were taking place for years but nothing drastic to deal with those priests. Some were transferred from parish to parish where they continued to do their abuses unchecked until the issues became public recently. But in the meantime, the numbers of children who were abused increased over the years. If steps were taken earlier, many would not have been victims.

It is my hope that HIM can learn from this and not only admit that there is problems with its divine authority teaching and the shepherding system but they will take actions NOW !!!.

Anonymous said...

i have been intimidated to obey the Hope leaders in things like keeping a short hair, must attend every activities held by Hope, consulting and obeying the shepherd advice concerning personal matters exp. BGR, even serving are also forced on me, even when i leave they still intimidate me to return there. Many comments here sounds very angry and hurt, though these comments seems rude, i really couldn't find it in me to blame the victims, these psychological scars are a result of repeated brainwashing attempted on these victims to get them to be submissive to the movement's authority and need special help to get them out of it.

It's very authoritative there and it left a deep scar in me too. Bro and sis may have went through things only known to themselves at Hope, at varying degrees, but bro and sis got to pick up and move on. Wherever bro and sis went to, it's not unusual to find authoritative figures whom may be more concerned about growing their movement than the well-being of members.

I believe Hope movement is very much focused on aggressive discipleship with an authoritative structure. To be aggressive in concerns about communities' welfare and to be aggressive in growing one's movement to increase revenue for the pioneers is two very different agenda.

Movement like Hope, they see a need in u, and they try to fulfill that need to keep u serving in their movement. Thus, wherever bro and sis go to next, it's important to have realistic expectations. Genuine relationships are build over long periods of understanding and disagreement, with turbulent times, it comes naturally without needing to always emphasize that i love u, you are my family, etc. I cannot say that i barely know u, yet u are my family just cause here u are now at this movement with me? that's what they always tell u at Hope, we are a family, they even ask me, how could u leave your family? such friendships no matter how close comes with a condition at Hope that is u got to be at Hope, if u leave then they say u have betrayed us and not family anymore? we got to get real about the sincerity of such relationships. members who fall for this partly have themselves to blame for being naive. So as i said earlier, it's important to have realistic expectations no matter where we go next.

Anonymous said...

There was a time in the history of Israel when the people went to their new king and said "Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but now lighten the harsh labor and the heavy yoke he put on us, and we will serve you." The king replied "Go away for three days and then come back to me." The king then consulted the elders who had served his father during his lifetime and asked "How would you advise me to answer these people?" They replied, "If today you will be a servant to these people and serve them and give them a favorable answer, they will always be your servants."

But the king rejected the advice the elders gave him and consulted the young men who had grown up with him and were serving him. He asked them, "What is your advice? How should we answer these people who say to me, 'Lighten the yoke your father put on us'?" The young men who had grown up with him replied, "Tell these people who have said to you, 'Your father put a heavy yoke on us, but make our yoke lighter'--tell them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's waist. My father laid on you a heavy yoke; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions.' "

Three days later, the people returned to the king. The king rejected the advice of the elders and followed the advice of the young men and answered the people harshly and said to them, "My father made your yoke heavy; I will make it even heavier. My father scourged you with whips; I will scourge you with scorpions."

And the Bible said "So the king did not listen to the people…" (1 Kings 12:15). And the result ? Verse 16 tells us that when the people saw that the king refused to listen to them, they answered the king "What share do we have in David, what part in Jesse's son? To your tents, O Israel! Look after your own house, O David!" And verse 19 says "So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day."

For leaders to ignore the comments in this blog and advise others to do so, is to do so at their peril. There is a lesson to learn from King Rehoboam's dealing with the Israelites in 1 Kings 12:1-24. Leaders need to consider what is being shared in this blog and see if there is any truth in the comments being made and take action, where necessary and should not ignore them. Unless unfortunately, like what verse 15 says, "…for this turn of events was from the LORD…". In which case, I have nothing to say.

Anonymous said...

Hope bro and sis who don't have much friends and often alone maybe can meet up with other bro and sis who are from nearby places. At least won't always be reminded of the past hurt. I think we tell each other where we are now, so those from nearby whom are interested to meet can do so.

Anonymous said...

I think what the brother/sister above suggested is a good idea. I think you can contact each other and form a support group for each other because it may take a while for some to find a church where they can settle in. From the comments on this blog, I think there should be a number from the KL/PJ area.

If you all are able to do it successfully, do share with us your results on the blog even I respect your desire to preserve anomynity. In fact, I think it is best to maintain anonymity in the best interest for all parties concerned.

God bless you all... Do keep each other in prayers...

Anonymous said...

If HIM is serious about change as it has been advocating since its inception, then not only must they teach the correct teachings in line with the Bible, it must discard the old teachings and practices that have been leading to abuses as reported in this blog.

Since it seems that most of the complaints in this blog come from the Malaysian churches, in my view, HIM's top personnel may have to make a public statement in writing or to be addressed to the Malaysian churches or during its national convention to the effect that they acknowledge those these teachings and practices are wrong and they are discarding them. This is in order that it will put a stop once and for all to the teachings and practices that have continued to be practiced by the many members and leaders as they have not been informed that these teachings and practices are being discarded. It is of course easier to start new teachings without wanting to acknowledge we have wrong all these while in order to save face but to do will not only be confusing, it will not be as effective as out front acknowledging our wrongs so that things can be put right immediately. Otherwise, members and leaders will continue to propagate and practice the old ways. As Jesus said in Luke 5:39 "And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "

Anonymous said...

Since Christian leaders and members who sincely think that the ends justify the means is sincely but mistakenly wrong. Consider what our Lord Jesus said "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21). Granted that none can judge whether who will enter the kingdom of heaven and we can enter the kingdom of heaven by the grace of God and not be works but we should consider the question “Are we doing the will of the Father who is in heaven ?” Are we carrying out His work according to His will ? Let us be reminded of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:10 “But each one should be careful how he builds.” And he further says “For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” (1Corinthians 3:11-15).

We need to be mindful of how we build. How can we claim to do God’s work when by doing so, we oppress our brothers and sisters in Christ all in the name of fulfilling God’s Great Commission ? No ! The ends does not justify the means of how we carry out duties to fulfil God’s work. Our work will be judged even though thank God that though our work may be burnt up, we escape the flames by the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. However, the Bible speaks strongly against stumbling our brothers and sisters in Christ. Consider what our Lord said in Mark 9:42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.”
Is this why you are losing your joy in serving God ? How can you think that you can have joy if you cause others to lose their joy by oppressing them and putting burdens on them that you do not even help them to carry ? This is our Lord Jesus’ s indictment of the Pharisees of His day: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.” (Matthew 23:15). Let it not be said of any one of us.

In Galatians 5:1, Paul says “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.” Why then, are we not afraid to disobey God in this command and put people under a yoke of slavery under the guise of obedience to leadership ? You may deny this but lately, have you asked your people how they feel under your leadership ?

Hope will say I have no authority to speak since I am not a Hope leader, that is true, but I speak based on the authority of God’s Word under whose authority we are all under. I thank God that not all leaders are like that but for those who are, it is my hope and prayers that he/she give up his/her oppressive ways so that the people of God may be set free. May God’s will be done on EARTH as in heaven !!!

Anonymous said...

From Insight For Today - August 7, 2011

Blind Loyalty Is Not Servanthood
by Charles R. Swindoll

Colossians 1:17–18, 28

In the last few decades, we have witnessed the emergence of groups like the Moonies, the Hare Krishnas, various New Agers, Scientologists, and numerous other cults.

Their jaded effort at controlling the minds of their followers is nothing short of brainwashing. It has been practiced by the Nazis, by Soviet-style Communists, and by totalitarian regimes all over the world. The result, of course, is a far cry from the role of a servant that Jesus Christ modeled. That form of mind bending turns a human being into a puppet, a slave without personal dignity, without the privilege to think and to ask questions, and without the joy of serving others willingly under the control and authority of Jesus Christ.

You may remember the story of a young man named Christopher Edwards who became a helpless pawn in the hands of one of the New Age religious groups that first came on the scene in this country back in the 1970s. Edwards was so captivated by this insidious movement that he had to be kidnapped by his own family before there could be any hope of recovery.

This bright, clear-thinking Yale graduate became virtually a glob of human putty in the hands of the "Moonies" in Northern California. Without realizing what was happening to him, the cultic system brainwashed him. After his father and a group of trained professionals finally snatched him from the tight fist of that cult, it took a full year of intense therapy before Chris regained his equilibrium.1

No, blind loyalty is not servanthood. Believe me, not only am I strongly opposed to the "mind bending" employed by cultic leaders, I see dangers in other ministries that take unfair advantage of people—ministries we'd certainly not think of as cults.

Any ministry that requires blind loyalty and unquestioning obedience is suspect. Not all gurus are in the eastern religions, you know. Some discipleship ministries, quite frankly, come dangerously near this point. I am not discrediting all discipleship programs! My main concern is the abuse of power, overemphasis of loyalty to a human leader, an intense and unhealthy accountability that uses intimidation, fear, and guilt to promote authoritarianism. Weak and meek people can become the prey of such paranoid, self-appointed messiahs, resulting not in spiritual growth, but in exploitation and the loss of human dignity.

People in the pew and pastors alike need to beware of super-hero leaders with an abundance of charisma. We need to watch out for the highly gifted, capable, winsome, and popular superstars who focus attention on themselves or their organization. Rather, the true leader must consciously turn people's devotion and worship to the Head of the body—Jesus Christ. The Savior is the Lord. He shares that preeminent place of authority and glory with none other.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. . . . We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ. (Colossians 1:17–18, 28)

1. Christopher Edwards, Crazy for God (Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1979).

Anonymous said...

Wish that the knowledgeable bro sis above do not only contribute by posting comments here. May the bro sis please suggest ways to help other bro sis in HIM movement and other similar movements. Please reply soon. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister,

Not sure who are you referring but would like to ask how we can help you ?

Anonymous said...

“The road of life is difficult and sometimes full of twists. Sometimes we have to go up and go down, go to the right and the left. We pass through valleys and climb mountains. Meanwhile, the Lord looks after us during our journey and leads us no matter what part of the path we face each day.”

From The Upper Room

Anonymous said...

Bro and sis need to forgive those who have hurt us. I feel guilty for hating those who has hurt me and at the same time I also feel angry of them. This two feelings in turns haunts me. I'm suffering inside. God help me. God help us all and God have mercy on us.

Anonymous said...

Bro and sis, i couldn't escape from this endless circle of guilt and hate. Who else could free me but God. Please help me.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister,

Healing takes time... Yes, you are right in believing that God can help you...

Are you seeking counselling for this ? I do think it helps to talk to a mature Christian on what you are going through right now...

Have you found another Church and care group to go to ?

You want to share more ?

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis,

Let me share that I keep fighting these feelings of anger against Hope leaders by praying for them that they may be freed from this bondage of spiritual deceit and come to true humility and repentence.
The recognition that Hope leaders are also being deceived by supernatural powers that present themselves as if they were coming from God will help us to depersonalize this issue of hurt. Certainly the fight for the truth is not against human flesh but against supernatural counterfeit which uses people and organizations in their plans to prepare the way to the Antichrist.

Anonymous said...

Some pretty extreme comments in the last post.

You need to be certain they are correct because you will have to give an account for them on the day of judgment.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister who posted on August 16, 2011 9:31 AM,

From your comments, I can sense that you still harbour deep hurts from your experience with Hope. Praying for them is good but if I would gently say that please do not allow your bitterness to colour the way you look at them...

Dear brother/sister, in my humble opinion, I do really believe you need to seek the help of an older and mature Christian whom you respect who can guide you through this dark period... He/she must of the same sex as you, Christlike, kind and gentle and preferably trained in counselling...Can you think of any such Christian whom you can consult...

May God guide you through this dark time into His wonderful light and set your soul free from the torments you are going through...

My prayer is that the words of Psalm 30:5b be true for you: "weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning."

Do share more if you think it helps you...

Anonymous said...

Dear bro or sis who gave a good advice on counselling. Let me share that I did not rely on my own perceptions regarding Hope movement and I talked privately with a very experienced Pastor from a respectable denomination who also have the gift of discernment. He confirmed this organization was a cult which uses threats in the supernatural realm to subjugate members.
Let me add that I did not leave Hope with personal bitterness against their leaders. Actually I left the Hope movement in spite of having a good amical relationship with them and for this reason the decision was not so easy. My only motivation was the search for the truth and I have paid a high price for it.

Anonymous said...

Words of encouragement from "Day By Day Devotional". May it give you comfort that everything is in God's hands and He will handle it…:

"He'll Handle It by Charles R. Swindoll
Read 1 Samuel 25:35–38

Mission accomplished! Everybody wins. David and his men go back full of food and all the wiser. Fantastic! Abigail goes home, and her husband puts his arm around her and says, "Honey, thanks. You're a great lady . . . more precious than rubies." No. I wish it said that. On the contrary.

Then Abigail came to Nabal, and behold, he was holding a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. And Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunk; so she did not tell him anything at all until the morning light. But in the morning, when the wine had gone out of Nabal, his wife told him these things, and his heart died within him so that he became as a stone. (1 Samuel 25:36–37)

She had stood between her husband and death, but the fool was so drunk she couldn't even tell him about it. So she crawled in bed, pulled up the covers, and went to sleep. I'm sure she poured out her heart to God and got things squared away between herself and the Lord, realizing she might never know what it was like to have a husband who appreciated her.

The next morning, after Nabal sobered up, she told him what had happened. And what was his reaction? The guy had a stroke. Literally. He listened to the story of how 401 guys were on the way to cut off his head, and he got really still, his eyes became glazed. I would imagine! Ten days later, "the LORD struck Nabal and he died" (25:38).

Isn't it amazing! When you do what is right, without tiring of it, God takes care of the impossible things. As we've seen, "When a man's ways please the Lord, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him." The same could be said of a woman, of course. There is no impossible situation that God cannot ."

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister who posted on August 17, 2011 8:24 AM,

I am glad to hear that you have consulted a pastor about Hope though I am not so sure about his/her observation. Time will tell…

You mentioned that you did not leave Hope with bitterness against their leaders and yet, in your earlier post, you mentioned about fighting feelings of anger towards them. May I know why you have anger towards them ? Did they treated you badly ?

If you still struggle with anger, then I recommend that you continue to seek counselling, perhaps, from the Church you are now attending... Healing of emotional or spiritual wounds take time, perhaps much longer than physical wounds and may need more sessions of counselling rather than just one time depending on yourself...

Anyway, I hope you have found another Church and care group to settle in. I believe this will really help you to move on. It will still take time as I have found out for myself, to forget, and to move on. Going into a new place and getting to know new people really take time and after our bad experience with Hope, perhaps, it makes us more cautious which I think is good, rather than just jumping into things. Another thing which I think will help is really making time each time to spend time with God to talk to Him, pray about your daily concerns, read the Word of God, not as a legalistic exercise but I find more time these days to spend time with God than when with Hope… Perhaps, this is just the best time to draw nearer to God before we move on to serve again…If you can find yourself able to serve again, please do get involved…

Hope to hear from you again… God bless you…

Anonymous said...

Dear brother,

I really appreciate your kind words of honest concern and encouragement. Let me clarify that when I learnt -through the discernment of the Pastor I consulted about the Hope movement-about Hope practice of making threats in the supernatural realm against those who refused to serve this organization, my first reaction was to be angry and this happened after I have already stopped attending Hope services. Actually I did not expect this kind of revelation to come out during these private talks with the Pastor. I could not have imagined that in the ten years I was very close to them. Now I understand that supernatural counterfeit is not controlled by human beings at all. They are just being used.

Anonymous said...

Hope u guys can state the branch u had been to, respective christian groups in your locality should take actions to rebuke the movement that practices intimidation to get members to obey the movement's wishes.

If movement such as Hope is a member of such Christian fellowship, the christian fellowship should advice Hope to change its ways and not cover up the matter. If this matter is covered up, the abuses will get worse and will eventually surface one day.

Please inform your local christian fellowship of the practices at Hope movement. You guys could prevent newer members from going through what we had. You guys could also prevent Hope from giving a negative image of christians to non-christians as we believe almost all churches doesn't condone these Hope practices. If we could prove that the abuses at Hope movement are widespread and not limited to a few members' experiences, christian community will be more aware of it and christian fellowship should formally reprimand or expel such movement.

Anonymous said...

Dear bro,

Let me say that this "word of prophecy" which was discerned by a Pastor as a threat in the supernatural realm - for not being willing to serve the organization- was given in Hope Singapore in the year 1999 at a meeting presided by the Senior Pastor and with the presence of many care group leaders.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister who posted above,would appreciate if you could kindly elaborate as I am not sure what you actually mean...

Please clarify...

Anonymous said...

Sorry, to further add, please explain what you mean by "Hope practice of making threats in the supernatural realm against those who refused to serve this organization"... I mean how do they "make threats in the supernatural realm" ?

Would appreciate your clarification so that I can understand better... Thank you...

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

The"word of prophecy" given to me in 1999 was about a tragedy that would occur in my family. And this event had a subtle link to Hope Singapore goal of planting a church in a country where I was about to travel. Since I did not regard myself as the right person to plant a church they sent a team there. Although I tried to cooperate with them this was not enough. They insisted that I should become the Pastor or this local church. Later on, the tragedy happened. And when I mentioned this to the Pastor I visited for advice he described this word of prophecy as a threat.

Anonymous said...

Dear brother/sister,

May I know if you felt that the 'word of prophecy' happened because you did not become the pastor as they wanted you to be ?

I am sorry to hear that a tragedy happened to your family (though I am not sure what happened) but I hope you dont blame yourself for what happened. Could this be the reason why you are a plagued by guilt and hatred ?

Dear brother/sister, if that is the case, I strongly recommend that you seek help from a trained counselor... you will need to work through this with someone, otherwise, you will continue to be plagued by these feelings which will cause to feel immobolised...

Another way I can suggest is to read some books. There are many books written by Christian psychatrists which you can refer to. Some books that I have found helpful are "Disappointment With God", "Where is God When It Hurts" both by Philip Yancey. It also helps to read books about the Grace of God...there are a number on the market...You need to know that God loves you above all, no matter what you situation you went through... You need really to know the truth of Romans 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." May the Lord reveal the truth of those words and may they be real for you...

Hope what I shared is of help and encouragement to you...

Please do not hesistate to share more if you think it will help you.

Take care and God bless you...

Anonymous said...

The emotional threat to get you to serve in Hope is absolutely wrong on Hope Movement's part. Who is the leader who said these things to u?

I hope all of us are absolutely clear too that none of the leaders at Hope can make bad things happen to someone supernaturally.

Since Hope had requested that u pioneer a new branch, I assume u are in an inner circle amongst the most senior leaders of Hope, you should know much clearly about Hope practices, I hope u approach the Commissioner of Charities if you find the practices at Hope to be abusive.

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

Thanks once again for the kind words of good advice. To be completely honest with all of you I do not have feelings of guilt or resentment. The only reason I am sharing this is to prevent others about the real dangers of become involved with a cult. I also do not think that this "word of prophecy" was crafted by Hope leaders to force me to serve in the organization. After talking to an experienced Pastor about these issues and crossing information on other cases it has become clear that a supernatural move can back up a cult. And to determine whether or not the supernatural comes from God we should carefully observe what kind of fruits does it produce.

Anonymous said...

Are u saying that the leaders at Hope wish for something bad to happen to your family and it happened just like that? Are we to seriously believe that any fellow human beings have such supernatural powers? Or did we misunderstand your statements?

I think they are trying to get u to serve in their movement by saying that if u didn't serve, such and such will happen, am i right? Could u share more about practices at Hope that you deem to be abusive? Did you assist the government ministry by informing them of such practices?

Anonymous said...

Dear brother,

It looks like I thought you were the same person who posted on August 14, 2011 11:10 AM. I am certainly glad to hear that you bear no resentment towards Hope despite what happened to you.

Anyway, as the brother who posted above suggest, it would be really good if you can clarify what actually happened to you regarding the 'word of prophecy' so that we can get the right picture.

Thank you.

Ya, I have seen it happening where some leader claimed that God revealed to that person about the situation in the Church when I am pretty sure the information came from reporting from some people from the Church. Perhaps they think that since the intention is good that they can do this but I felt that it is still wrong. There have been times when the leaders used the pulpit to speak personal matters against other in the Church and again, I felt that this is wrong because I always felt that the pulpit is a holy place meant only for speaking God's Word and not for personal vendatta. I pray that God will bring conviction on those leaders who are doing these wrong acts.

Do you all have such experiences in the Hope Church that you came from ?

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

The "word of prophecy" given to me in 1999 at Hope Singapore was put in writing by one of the Assistant Pastors and the following week it was emailed to me. Unfortunately I have lost that valuable information. When the tragic event that was foreseen in that "vision" actually happened I enquired about it without getting a response.
In the first place I thought this could be a sort of "divination" but when I talked to a Pastor from other Church he discerned it as a threat. How can these things operate in the supernatural realm and what is the role of our fellow human beings? It has become clear that the practice of delivering believers to Satan (a Hope practice against those who refuse to serve or obey the leadership which is based on a distortion of Apostle Paul's letters)is simply putting a curse on that person and his family invoking supernatural powers.

Anonymous said...

Even if the allegations made here are true, the question I have for you is whether you have had any checks in your spirit about sharing such lurid details on the internet.

If you have then you shouldn't be sharing in this manner.

If you haven't then perhaps you are similar to Eagle Eye (whom I once respected but no longer) - indifferent as to Biblical principles.

Anonymous said...

Dear bro,

Perhaps you are overlooking the Biblical principles of honesty, truthfulness and transparency. But I understand you have been raised in the Hope culture of secrecy and thus your reaction against the sharing in this blog is not surprising.

Anonymous said...

Honesty and truthfulness are biblical. Transparency applied in the right context is biblical also.

None of those principles apply to justify the allegations being levelled here. If you seriously believe otherwise, then you are ignoring a whole lot of other biblical principles to the contrary which others have repeated again and again.

And no, I was'nt raised a Christian in Hope.

So you are wrong on at least 2 counts.

Anonymous said...

Eagle Eye,

You have ignored the requests of several bloggers to moderate the comments posted on this blog.

You need to be aware that the Lord may hold you personally responsible for facilitating those comments on this blog that are unGodly and turning a blind eye to them (the pun is fully intended). Remember how Eli was held personally responsible for the unGodly actions of his sons? For your own sake I urge you to act without further delay.

Hopefully you do not think that I have just posted a whole heap of rubbish. If you do then that could be most unfortunate when you stand before the Lord on judgment day.

Anonymous said...

The very act of saying to others that something bad will happen to their family members if they do not do as instructed had already cross many boundaries of civil conduct.

What principles are u talking about? Should we rather turn a blind eye to what Hope is doing?

Anonymous said...

If Hope has done bad things as alleged, by all means go after them using legitimate means. The principles supporting those means are stated in the scriptures.

The internet is not the right place to go after Hope.

In terms of the principles I'm talking about, just take the time to read all 320 or so previous posts or read the bible, in particular the 4 Gospels and including the Sermon on the Mount. That would be a good start.

Anonymous said...

Hmmm…. Just wondering if it is it wrong to expose wrongdoings ? Should be it be covered up ? I remember reading about the pedophile priests scandal that happened in Ireland. It seems that the top leaders knew about the conduct of some of those priests many years before the news exploded into public domain and instead of taking actions against those priests in those early days, they just covered it up to protect the Church leading to more innocent children being abused… was that a good thing ?

Anyway, would like to say to the brother who got the ‘word of prophecy’ may need to see the context of how the ‘word of prophecy’ was given. Only you alone would know the context and the spirit in which the ‘word of prophecy’ was given. The pastor that you spoke to is likely to be a Charismatic, correct me if I am wrong. Charismatics tend to hold to this type of teachings. I read a book written by Derek Prince on Curses and Blessings. I was present in a small meeting where this pastor from the UK gave a word of prophecy to a man there, warning of difficult times ahead. And it turned out to be true. The man became sick and still sick with the same condition up to this day which is more than 10 years ago. To this day, as far as I know, nobody in the group would consider that the pastor has cursed that man (by the way, that meeting was not a Hope gathering). Rather, I see that the words given was to prepare the man for hard times coming and to encourage him.

I would like to say that perhaps the ‘word of prophecy’ that was given to you could be a word given to you in order to prepare you for what is coming and is not a curse nor a punishment from God. We see that Job was the most righteous man of his time and for that, he became a wager between Satan and God. God allowed Satan to strike Job but noticed what God said to Satan in Job 1:12: “The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." From here, we learn that Satan was the instigator of the pain and sufferings of Job not because he was a sinful man but simply because he was a righteous man. But God was so confident of Job that He allowed him to be tested.

Just my thoughts… Correct me if I am wrong…

Anonymous said...

Wrongdoings should be dealt with and addressed properly.

Covering up is contrary to scriptures and is wrong.

Exposing anonymously, particularly over the internet, is also contrary to scriptures and wrong.

Too many posts in this blog refer to worldly sources of authority such as the tabloids scandal in the UK and quotes from politicians.

Did Hope really teach you worldviews based on those principles or are you simply following the ways of the world without having thought deeply about the implications?

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

I really appreciate the comment about looking at the context in which the "word of prophecy" was given. Actually that was exactly the way I looked at it when the tragedy happened: as a preparation for that event without losing faith. What I never understood was why Hope leaders did not want to talk about it. Did they have a different vision or word afterwards? By that time they were teaching that words of prophecy should be confirmed by three people. Were they unsure of the source or validity of the prophecy? It is really hard to get open and transparent answers from Hope leaders provided that you had the chance to ask the questions.

That's why I would like to know how do Hope leaders or advocates consider a proper way of dealing with it. If you could please elaborate a practical suggestion that can be applied in the Hope context -other than shutting down the blog and threatening with God's judgement- I would be glad to
put into practice.

I am not afraid of talking face to face with Hope leaders about this issue and others. Actually when I did I got another threat: to be delivered to Satan as it has happened in other cases.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the brother above objecting to quotes from the world, forgot the teachings of the founder of Hope, Dr. Joseph C Wongsak that we are to hold the Bible in one hand and the world in the other...

Anonymous said...

That's a clownish comment. Taking Joseph out of context to attack the movement and demonstrating little understanding of scriptural principles or the distinction the Bible draws between spiritual things and things of the world.

Anonymous said...

God's judgment is God's judgment. I do not administer it and am honest enough to admit that I will be on the receiving end of His judgment one day.

I can't threaten anyone with God's judgment since I have no control over the matter. I can only point out the truth and remind us all to fear the Lord and then it is up to the listener to choose his or her next steps.

There are proper ways to deal with any wrong doings by Hope. Most of these ways involve discussing the issues face to face with senior Christian leaders in the city. All proper concerns need to be raised with such Christian leaders in person face to face. That much is biblical. Lawsuits against Christians are not encouraged by scripture nor do I think much about raising the concerns with government authorities unless a crime has been committed. Put in another way, let the church of Jesus Christ have the first opportunity to clean up its mess before we scandalize it and bring shame upon it.

Anonymous said...

Moderating a blog and shutting down a blog are two different things.

Please interpret the information you have been provided responsibly and correctly.

If Eagle Eye moderates the blog by removing unGodly comments I have no objection to the blog continuing.

It is Eagle Eye's demonstrated indifference as to what is being posted on this blog which could be his or her undoing.

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

The suggestion of talking face to face to Hope Senior leaders in the city is well taken and this is what I did before making the decision of leaving the Hope Movement. During that conversation I was told that there are teachings reserved only for Hope leaders and this information is not to be shared or discussed with ordinary members. For this reason it would be difficult for any member -I do not know if the person who made the suggestion is a member or a leader- to have this kind of open discussion about controversial practices with Hope Senior leaders.

For those out there who think that my testimony on the word of prophecy given to me in 1999 at Hope Singapore is just another "attack" against the Hope movement, I challenge you to do your own research on one specific point: Has the Hope movement ever practiced what they called "deliver to Satan" to any of her members or leaders? what are the biblical grounds to do that? is refusing to serve or obey the leaders an example of blasphemy? are there other Christian churches or movements engaged in this practice of "deliver to Satan"?

Anonymous said...

I suspect that once one's mind has been made up that others are wrong in blogging here as making an attack on Hope so it is no use giving how good an explanation... There will alway a reply why it is wrong... There seems to be a determination to stop all sharing here... I wonder why ?

Anonymous said...

The brother is right in saying that there is no way that ordinary members have access to information and even low level leaders are not even allowed to know certain information.

And for this, I like to defend Eagle Eye by saying that for years when I faced struggles in Hope, I was searching in vain for information on the internet about Hope but found none. Nobody in Hope could understand my struggles, you dont talk to people about this type of things inside the Church and the rule is talk up and if you talk up, what happens ? You get rebuke by leaders for having such sinful thoughts... After I was told of this blog and started reading what was written by people who for the first time openly shared their struggles in Hope, I then realised that I was not alone in my struggles...

Everyone's struggles and perceptions of Hope are different and I feel we should be allowed freedom to be true to ourselves instead of pretending to be something we are not but if those who are wrong, we can corrent him/her is a spirit of love rather than judgement. I think the spirit that is determined to silent people is wrong. I of course do not agree with foul or vulgar language but is it so wrong to share and discuss our experiences ? After all, is this not a forum for Hope or ex-Hope members ?

Anonymous said...

There's most probably nothing mysterious about these leadership meetings really. They purposely project this aura of mysterious to make those in leadership positions appeared like an "elite" group. To project the idea as if this "elite" group have godly authority over the rest of us who is "unenlightened".

Then after much repetitive teachings and assurance in these leadership trainings programs, some supposedly "leaders" especially the younger one could possibly be duped into believing that they are the chosen ones, that this movement members are their family, that they receive unconditional love and support from this group,...only then these "leaders" will be used to do the bidding of the movement pioneers.

It's partly the fault of these people too for having too high an expectation from a group, wanting to be fully accepted, etc. They see your needs, they give u what u come for, and now u have to give them what they wanted. Hope is just a secular movement using spiritual blackmail and emotional manipulation to achieve their objective. They are building a career out of our needs and fears. Once people realized they are just out making a career for themselves, and there's nothing left to fear of them, and they couldn't conjure a curse on us out of thin air, people will just laugh at them when they make any spiritual threats and the whole movement will crumble. Just look at these leaders like any human being, which what they really are. Then u'll see clearly for what they really are.

Anonymous said...

Was Martin Luther in the wrong when he publicly denounced the excesses of the Roman Catholic Church of his days ? Was Ps PK Tse of Hope London in the wrong when he sent out his email expressing his disappointment with the founder and Ps PN ? And for those who object to worldly examples, was apostle Paul in the wrong when in the presence of other believers, he confronted Peter when he behaved wrongly (Galatians 2:11-14) ? To some, this is wrong but to countless others, those who get to know the wrongdoings that have been, surely they are glad to know the truth. The Bible say that when we know the truth, the truth will set us free. This may be in the context of the gospel but knowledge is powerful and that is why authoritarian leaders in the world are reluctant let their people have access to knowledge but in the age of the internet, many coming to know the truth have been liberated…

Anonymous said...

Not sure why my comments keep getting misinterpreted? I wrote that legitimate concerns about Hope can be raised with senior church leaders in the city and someone has interpreted my comments to mean that the concerns should be raised with senior HOPE leaders.

If time and time again people on this blog cannot even interpret that which I have clearly set out in writing correctly, what confidence do we have that events of the past are being described accurately and in proper context?

Once again please read carefully before jumping to your preferred conclusions.

Anonymous said...

As for the allegation that there is a determination to stop all sharing on this blog, that is another example of the spin we have to put up with. Hopefully it is not wilful misunderstanding.

Moderated sharing is what a few of us are seeking from Eagle Eye.

Anonymous said...

Are there biblical references to the practice of delivering a person to Satan? Take the time to read your bible or buy a good concordance. The answer will present itself.

Should the practice of delivering a person to Satan be used often? Certainly not but before you criticise from your own sense of right and wrong, read your bible.

Anonymous said...

Actually I have no problem with PK Tse's sharing his concerns in that he was prepared to identify himself and state his concerns with sufficent detail so that first, he could be held responsible for the things he wrote and secondly, people would have the opportunity to verify the truth of the things he was sharing about for themselves.

Anonymous said...

Nor do I object to the examples of Martin Luther King and of Paul.

In fact the example of Paul which you have described demonstrates precisely why this blog is heading in the wrong direction. In your own words Paul confronted Peter in the presence of other believers.

Please practice what you preach - go and confront the people you have issues with in the presence of other believers. Then you will be just like the Paul you so admire.

Anonymous said...

are the people of this blog non-belivers ?

Anonymous said...

An excellent question!

Anonymous said...

Dear bros,

With all my respect for different opinions let me say that those who are trying to "defend Hope" by ridiculing, threatening or belittling other believers who are speaking up on several controversial Hope practices are using the same tactics of the world of politics. As usual the "big bosses" will not be interested in open discussion of critical and sensitive issues and they will just allow their "soldiers" to discredit true testimonies.

Anonymous said...

To the brother who received the ‘word of prophecy’,
Glad that you chose to treat the prophecy as God’s preparation as to what is coming. Whether you have found the answer you seek on this blog or not, just want to encourage you to move on and leave the past behind and let it not bother you anymore. It is obvious that God loves you enough to give you word ahead of time so as to prepare. You can be assured that He will continue you to lead you the days ahead. Remember what David said in Psalm 23:4 “Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.” May you find that verse 6 be real for you: “Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.”

As to your question whether the practice of ‘handing over to Satan’ is practised in Churches, so far I have not heard of such incident in the few churches I have attended perhaps because the type of situation to warrant are few or yet to arise in those churches. I believe the practice of ‘handing over to Satan’ is for extreme sin in which the individual fail to repent. I did read about the Roman Catholic excommunicating people, for example, Martin Luther, when he refused to recant of his beliefs when challenged to do so by the Church authorities.

In my view, whether any real authority to ‘hand over to Satan’ come from God’s authorized representatives who are doing so in line with His Word. So, in the Corinthian situation, Paul said to hand over the believer to Satan because that man was actually publicly having an affair with his stepmother (1 Corinthians 5:1-5). But even then, Paul’s intention was because in verse 5, he said the reason for handing the man to Satan was “so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.” And in 2 Corinthians, when it appears that when the man have repented, Paul said in 2 Corinthians 2:6-8 “The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him.”

Perhaps the issue of the ‘word of prophecy’ should be kept separate from the issue of ‘handing over to Satan’. In the case of Martin Luther, after he was excommunicated, from what I read in a book on him, I did not read of anything adverse happening to him after the excommunication except what was in normal occurrence to people at that time (correct me if I am wrong). Remember Job ? God did hand over Job to Satan but he was told to spare his life (Job 2:6 “The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, he is in your hands; but you must spare his life."”). Again, in Job 1:10, Satan said to God about Job, "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.” These verses indicated that God is still in control, even over Satan. There is a verse in Proverbs that says “Like a fluttering sparrow or a darting swallow, an undeserved curse does not come to rest.” (Proverbs 26:2)
Hope my sharing can give you a measure of comfort. Should you want to discuss more, please do feel free to do so. Take care and God bless you !

Anonymous said...

Lately, the attacks by a certain has been very discouraging but this morning, I read a devotional that encourages me to continue to encourage even in the face of discouragement and I would like to share with you all in order that you, dear brothers and sisters, can continue to encourage one another:

HomeWord - August 26, 2011
Affirm God’s Work in Others
This devotional was written by Jim Liebelt
“Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.” —1 Thessalonians 5:11

We are all on the journey as Christians. Along the way, experience different levels of spiritual maturity than others, and face circumstances that provide opportunities for moving ahead or falling behind in our Christian lives.

From time to time, to one extent or another, we all struggle with who we are and who we want to be. We wonder how our lives have come to be the way they are, and how they might otherwise be different if we had made different choices along the way. We question whether or not we are living out the life God intends for us and whether we are making any impact through our lives.

As a worker who telecommutes from home, a thousand miles from the office, I have on occasion, questioned the impact I have through my ministry. Once, while I was relating my journey to a friend, he responded with a shower of affirmation. My mood and outlook were affected tremendously! I walked away from the discussion feeling completely different about my situation!

One of the big jobs—and blessings—that we as Christians have been given is that of building up and encouraging fellow believers. Affirming God’s work in others is a powerful way to do this! When we come alongside others and say things like: “I just want to tell you how I see God using your life…” or “I know this season of life is rough, but you’re going to get through it,” not only do we impact others, we also remind ourselves of the power and grace of Christ to make a difference in our lives, causing us to survive and flourish in our own faith.

Our faith is a response to God’s work in our lives. Therefore, it should not be a source of pride in our lives, assuming that we’ve arrived. On the other hand, our faith should not be a source of pain when we understand how far we fall short. Rather, our faith ought to be a tremendous source of comfort, confidence and assurance as we look to Jesus who is the author and perfecter of our faith. When we understand God’s perspective that faith is His work, we have freedom to be the man or woman God has intended us to be and we escape from the tyranny of spiritual paralysis.

Today, whatever your life situation, be encouraged by a fresh understanding of the freeing love of God in a new and powerful way in your life.


1. Reflect on a time when someone’s encouragement made a positive change in your life and faith.

2. Who needs your encouragement today? Affirm God’s work in her or his life!


Hebrews 12:2; Hebrews 3:13; Romans 1:11-12

Anonymous said...

My previous posts pointed out the flaws in your logic and reasoning process and highlighted the inconsistency in your behavior. On the one hand you hold Paul up as an admirable example. On the other hand you are not prepared to follow his example but do the exact opposite. There is no personal attack nor are you being ridiculed, threatened or belittled. I am merely stating the facts and it seems obvious that when the truth is presented so directly and starkly it hurts your feelings so much that you characterize it as an attack!

Perhaps you could also explain to all of us how it is possible for anyone to threaten an anonymous and unidentifiable person? If you are threatened by the prospect of the Lord's judgment, the simple reality is that the Lord’s judgment will be what it will be and I have no influence over the Lord in this matter. If you are confident you are doing the right thing you should have absolutely nothing to worry about. However if you have any reason at all to be concerned that any aspect of your behavior is sinful then it is entirely up to you to cease that sinful behavior immediately. It is your free choice.

Also, if you consider it fair and right to criticize others through this blog, it is a contradiction in terms for you to claim that you on the other hand should be immune from criticism and to cry “discouragement” when you are critized.

Perhaps you are a victim, then again perhaps you are not. I would like to have the opportunity to bring encouragement into your life. If you need encouragement, I am more than willing to encourage you. However until you respect the Lord’s Word and stop sniping in an unbiblical manner at others through this blog I will do no more than draw attention to the unbiblical and contradictory aspects of your behavior. If you truly believe your criticism is biblical, tell us why. If you do not believe your criticism is biblical I suggest you stop it. So where do you want to go from here? Ask for encouragement or continue to snipe at others? Either one or the other but not both please and it is your free choice.

Anonymous said...

Thanks once again to the bros who took the time to wrote very kind and encouraging messages and specially for the Biblical reflection on the practice of "handing over to Satan". As I mentioned before I was told in a private meeting with two Hope leaders about this practice and clearly it was not in the context described in the Bible. I am also not aware of any Christian group or denomination practicing it outside of the Biblical context (or even within the Biblical context). Certainly I am not seeking personal answers in this blog, I just want to make it known among current,former or prospective Hope members or leaders about this secret practice of "handing over to Satan". Transparency is the issue here.

Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as a secret practice of handing over to Satan.

The practice is authorised by 1 Cor 5:5 although in terms of practical application it is a practice only to be used very sparingly in extreme cases so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

Anonymous said...

If transparency was that important an issue, you are at liberty to turn up in the church and personally bring this issue of the secret practice of handing over to Satan to the attention of the current,former or prospective Hope members or leaders.

Somehow I don't think you are going to be taking this course of action anytime too soon. Then again I am receptive to surprises.

Anonymous said...

Dear bro,

Again your suggestion is well taken. And if I had the chance to visit a Hope group (there is none in the city where I am currently living) I would just ask to any Hope leader what do they think about the practice of "handing over to Satan". Is there any Biblical study made by the Hope movement on this issue? How do they interpret the conditions under which it should be applied? May I have in writing the official view of the Hope movement on this specific issue?

Perhaps you can do this yourself if you are really interested in finding out the answers to these questions.


Anonymous said...

Bizarre – you do not appear to know the answers to the three questions you stated in your last post but nevertheless you are willing to attack the Hope movement in this blog on a subject which you do not appear to have a thorough knowledge of.

Then you have also invited me to find out the answers to those same three questions which you stated.

Something doesn’t quite compute.

In your earlier attacks you implicated the senior pastor and at least one other pastor and you branded the Hope movement a cult.

Well the bottom line and truth is you are either correct or wrong.

The truth and your identity are known to the Lord. You will either be rewarded for alerting the masses to the insidious activities of a cult and its pastors or judged for bringing shame to the church of Jesus Christ and touching his anointed servants. For your own sake I hope you are correct. For the sake of the thousands in the movement I hope you are wrong. My warning to you is that the things which I am aware of tend to rather strongly suggest that you may be wrong. Anyway it really isn’t for me to judge either way and as there doesn’t seem to be a win-win outcome I’ll leave things at that.

Oh by the way, there are no threats in the last paragraph. Just the way things work as I understand it.

Anonymous said...

It's Hope movement which always insisted that people have to accept its views. Nobody will be outraged if Hope do not coerced anyone into obeying. Hope leaders are entitled to their own views, if only they don't force it on others.

Why not the Hope movement president now set an example by recruiting his own children into full time ministry instead of expanding the movement at the members' expense? They wouldn't even drink the kool-aid they prepared themselves, and they wouldn't feed it to their own children, now they want to shove it down our throat? Can such hypocrisy come from anything holy? Your guilt trip don't work on us anymore. We saw these hypocrisy first hand for ourselves.

Are u sure that Hope movement members numbers in the thousands? Was that before or after the split? There's too many movement that number in the thousands and even millions. You can drink your kool-aid if u want, just don't tell others to drink it. Stop recruiting new members, then it would only be Hope problem, not our problem, nobody will even say a word about Hope then.

Anonymous said...

Yet another clownish contribution. Are you able to see clearly through all that grease paint?

Haven’t we heard from you before? You’re the person who has a gripe against the president over alleged renovations. You’re prepared to label the president a hypocrite. I have a challenge for you and that is to give us the name of one person in this world who isn’t a hypocrite.

Look, if I were really trying to recruit members for the movement then I’m really doing an Amway salesperson of the year job aren’t I?

No, I’m simply exposing the fallacy in many of your thought processes and reasoning and the truth appears to be hurting you heaps.

So many people so keen to put up their hands for judgment, seems to be the next best thing since sliced bread.

Anonymous said...

Dear bro,

Let me share with you that I did not accept to become a Hope Pastor because I did not see fruits of righteousness in my life and thus I did not want to bring shame on the gospel. I feared most to hear these words in the day of judgement: "I never knew you. Get away from me you who practice lawlessness".

Why did Hope leaders insist that I should become a Pastor? Although the words of prophecy were not explicit on this regard it appears that they understood it in that sense.

I also took the viewpoint that I might be wrong and that's why I took advice from a Senior Pastor from other Church. Clearly in this other Church I will not qualify to become a Pastor.

The fact is that for Hope leaders "I did not heed the word of God" and for this reason they announced that bad things will happen to me and my family. And it seems that the fulfilment of this prophecy came about through handing me over to Satan as I was told in the last meeting I had before leaving the Hope movement.

Please note that the Hope movement was regarded as a cult by other Churches in Thailand as it is documented in an independent report. Were they bringing shame to the Church of Jesus Christ for pointing out that?

Perhaps what is needed most to clarify all these issues is an updated independent report on the Hope movement practices.

Anonymous said...

One of my friends in the church I attend is an ordained pastor from another church. Yet he doesn’t preach or minister in my church and is not addressed or referred to as a pastor. Is this usual? No. Is this unbiblical? No. Has he attended a bible college? Not to my knowledge. The point I’m leading to? Different denominations and different movements have different requirements for ordination as pastors. Precisely the same point you have made. In other words, your example is not unique to the Hope movement and the Hope movement is not necessarily a cult just because it may have been prepared to ordain you as a pastor.
A lot of humanist nonsense has been posted on this blog on the subject of the qualifications of pastors by persons other than you. Who calls a person to be a pastor? The Lord does. What does the Bible have to say about the qualifications required of pastors? Plenty in terms of the person’s personal qualities and character. Little by way of academic qualifications. Is helpful for a person aspiring to be a pastor to have bible college qualifications? Most definitely. Does the absence of bible college qualifications mean a person must be excluded from being a pastor? Certainly not.
I am not aware that the Hope movement is regarded as a cult by other churches in Thailand or that these allegations are documented in an independent report. Every report needs to be commissioned by a body or a person. No one just starts writing a report for the sake of it. Which independent body or person would have commissioned such a report into the Hope of Bangkok church? Are the Thai churches bastions of theological truth or household names in Christian circles for that matter?
There have been many international Christian churches, organisations and persons of note who have been prepared to associate themselves with the Hope movement over the years (Terry Virgo, Peter Wagner, Pedro Moreno, Richard Holland, Kevin Conner to name a few). Were they all wrong and in error?
Going forwards, which body or person would commission a so-called independent report into the Hope movement? Wouldn’t anyone who took the trouble to commission such a report have a vested interest in the outcome and therefore not be independent?

Anonymous said...

An earlier blogger was quick to spring to the “defence” of Eagle Eye. While your loyalty is admirable, your attempt to mount a “defence” for Eagle Eye is misconceived.
There is no dispute about what Eagle Eye has done on this blog. We know Eagle Eye has posted a lot of information. It is there in writing for all of us to read. To be fair some of this information is quite good and helpful. Neither is there a dispute about what Eagle Eye has not done on this blog. We know that of late Eagle Eye checks this blog infrequently. That in itself demonstrates a certain attitude of indifference towards the content posted on this blog. We also know that Eagle Eye has ignored repeated requests to moderate this blog and remove content that is ungodly.
The only thing that matters going forwards is the Lord’s opinion on all of the above – whether the Lord considers Eagle Eye’s actions and omissions right or wrong.
My opinion is not relevant except to the extent that it may serve as a warning to Eagle Eye that he or she may not be able to disclaim responsibility for or wash his or her hands of all the ungodly comments that have made their way unchecked onto this blog.
One person has alleged that I’m taking him or her on a guilt trip and that it has no effect anymore. Well there is a plain and simple truth to point out in response to that allegation. If I know I haven’t done anything wrong there is no way that I would be tormented by feelings of guilt. Feelings of guilt only afflict those who have reason to believe that they have done something wrong. Such feelings should serve as a warning to stop that destructive pattern of behaviour.

Anonymous said...

Proverbs 18:5

“It is not good to be partial to the wicked or to deprive the innocent of justice.”

Ezekiel 45:9

“This is what the Sovereign LORD says: You have gone far enough, O princes of Israel! Give up your violence and oppression and do what is just and right. Stop dispossessing my people, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

“Silence is the voice of complicity…”

Anonymous said...

Romans 1:18

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness..."

Anonymous said...

"Compassion offers whatever is necessary to heal the hurts of others." (Our Daily Bread)

Anonymous said...

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."

Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
(French-born Quaker Minister)

Anonymous said...

Yes. And the supposedly innocent persons who are contributing to this blog post slander and even attack the pastor's children on this blog.

If you have a gripe against the pastor, it is right and proper to leave the pastor's children out of it. Just like you they should have the freedom to do what they choose to do with their lives.

Bringing the children into it only demonstrates to us how negatively your mind works.

Anonymous said...

“The silence of the victim is the empowerment of the abuser…”

Anonymous said...

Exactly right! Thank you for supporting the point I was making.

The silence of the pastor’s children is nothing more than empowering the blogger who has treated them shamefully on this blog by insisting that their parents recruit them into full time ministry irrespective of their wishes. And to what end we might ask? To make an example of them to others.

Seeing that the children have been silent on this matter, it is now up to others on this blog to recognise the abusive behaviour this blogger is demanding of their parents.

I therefore call on the support of other fair minded readers of this blog to denounce the shameful treatment of the children.

Anonymous said...

Your valiant efforts to locate specks in the eyes of others is only serving to throw light on the planks in your eyes.

Hmmmm it is not a pretty sight.

Anonymous said...

The same person made the posts on September 3, 2011 at 6:31 AM and September 3, 2011 at 6:49 AM.

Anonymous said...

The number inaccuracies about me on this blog are fascinating but are ultimately a sad indictment of the inability of some to discern truth from lapses into wild speculation.

It was written that I’m a drinker of kool-aid who tells others to drink it.

It was further written that I’m also to go and drink my kool-aid apparently.

I had to Google the term “kool-aid” before I even understood the expression let alone contemplate drinking that vile substance. Obviously my dear blogger you don’t care about me sufficiently to take even a moment of your time to carefully explain and point out the error of my ways. No, it is much easier for you to brand me a brainwashed and unquestioning believer and suggest I commit suicide. Attributing the Hope Movement with Jim Jones and his followers eh? Well once again you’re either right or wrong and you know the rest of the drill from there.

These most wonderful contributions appear to originate from our embittered blogger who implicates the pastor's children and with provocation told Bob Katter’s hat to stop leading sheep to the slaughter. Free speech is for anyone who seeks to attack the movement. Otherwise, just shut up or better still go away and die.

And none of you fair minded critics of the Hope movement have concerns with the implications of any of those contributions? WOW!

Then again according to another blogger I’m supposedly a “soldier” of a Hope movement “big boss”. Wrong again. Thought it better you learn this aspect of truth today rather than on judgment day.

Look at all these inaccuracies and unsupported assertions. How did these come to be? Making factual assumptions where no evidence exists to support the assumptions. Why am I even asking these questions? The number of questions that I have asked and received abuse in reply suggests I ask in vain. Could it be that answering my questions would demonstrate that these bloggers apply one rule to the Hope movement and another rule to themselves? When we combine all of these considerations with the number of times I have been misunderstood, misinterpreted and misquoted on this blog, serious question must arise as to whether some of these bloggers are faithful or fanciful purveyors of truth.

Anonymous said...

Correction of error in last post.

One paragraph should have read:

These most wonderful contributions appear to originate from our embittered blogger who implicates the pastor's children and who without provocation told Bob Katter’s hat to stop leading sheep to the slaughter. Free speech is for anyone who seeks to attack the movement. Otherwise, just shut up or better still go away and die.

Anonymous said...

“5. Avoid spiritual abuse. Stand up to people who want to heap guilt and shame on you when you’ve already confessed and repented of your sins before God. Focus on God’s mercy and grace. Don’t waste your time or energy trying to project a certain image to others; instead, just be real with them. Resist pressure to smile when you don’t feel happy; feel free to express your true emotions honestly, even when that makes other people feel uncomfortable. Forgive people who have spiritually abused you, and move on to freedom in your life.”

From 12 Ways to Unleash Courage in Your Life By Whitney Hopler based on Paul Coughlin's book, Unleashing Courageous Faith: The Hidden Power of a Man’s Soul, (Bethany House, 2009).

Anonymous said...

Already confessed and repented of your sins?

Confessed your sins possibly, I will grant you that.

Repentance however involves a decision not to sin anymore and yet sin appears to continue to abound on this blog.

Remember the words of Jesus about repenting and sinning no more?

So there must be serious doubt as to whether any repentance has occurred.

There is an excellent piece of advice in the last post however - and that is the advice to forgive people who have spiritually abused you, and move on to freedom in your life.

Then again posts made by kool-aid and cohorts suggest that no forgiveness has been extended at this point in time.

Anonymous said...

Matthew 11:28-30

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Revelation 21:1-4

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Anonymous said...

Amazing isn't it?

The scriptures themselves are unobjectionable and I would never seek to argue against them.

However it seems to me that these scriptures are being posted in support of those who are engaged in levelling unsubstantiated accusations against others on this blog, who are erratic repositories of information at best and who demand that the pastor's children be treated abusively by their own father.

If my analysis is correct then the person sharing the scriptures with us today could actually be condoning the actions of the abusive bloggers?

Please do correct me if I'm wrong or have misinterpreted anything. While no one likes to admit to being wrong, on this occasion it would really be nice for even one honest and fair minded blogger to assure me that I'm wrong. It would help engender a sense of belief in me that there are still a remnant of people on this blog who do not have a corrupted sense of right and wrong tinged with bitterness and unforgiveness.

Oh Eagle Eye oh Eagle Eye, it appears your blog is now hosting a bunch of bloggers who are incapable of reason, and who specialise in abusing those who do not agree with them.

And to think that you are still in the Hope movement and I am not.

As I said before, amazing isn’t it?

Anonymous said...

"Lets not be bitter but be better". This is one of the statements written in the latest editorial by Eagle Eye which is worth to read it.

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