Your Verdict - Renewing our thoughts

My thoughts on recent post

2011-07-20T07:55:00.000-07:00

Its been a long time since i have visited the blog as i believe the issue with Hope Thailand have been fully explained.

I will take this weekend to refresh the blog so we can better read some of the post. I must admit there are many people who have left Hope frustrated and angry. Over the years, i have seen many good friends leave the church but the good thing is many of us are still in touch with one another proving that moving church does not mean burning bridges.

I know many people who have left Hope have in one way or another have been let down by the church in one or another. Lets not be bitter but be better

if you will allow me to say a few words in regards to the Hope Movement.

Firstly, I am in no doubt Hope started out with the full intention of bringing the gospel to the world, which is why many of the pioneer leaders of Hope came from OCS in Australia ad were all previous leaders from other churches . Hope have no evil intention or are a satanic or a cult church, they have good intention but really really bad execution, that have caused some issues along the way.

Putting aside the sinful teachings taught by PN and Dr Joseph in regards to idol worship and the frivolous ways money was used in the Thai Churches . Generally most other overseas pastor have preached in line with the gospel.

I have learned in all my years as a christian both in the traditional and charismatic movement that great principles alone do not make a great church. Marxist ideology is one simple example, in its purest form; its the epitome of a heaven on earth where classless society work for the common good. But human nature is inherently evil and susceptible to greed, lust and power.

Same is true in Hope movement, it had great blue print but bad execution plan no doubt a side-effect from the teaching method of Dr Kreingsak.

Lets look at

1. Shepherding

Its a good mechanism for building the body of christ, I don't disagree that it will be good to have someone to mentor you and build you up. In an ideal world, a strong and well respected christian should mentor and help you grow, but in reality we find due to manpower shortage people are just assign over you sometimes just base on seniority. I have seen new christian less then 3 month shepherding and doing following up. ( Good intention but bad execution)

In all seriousness, is there really a huge difference between a 3 month christian and a new believer ? Young christian have tendency to be over zealous teach the wrong thing or even say the wrong things. In some cases when the group grow too fast, many have become a Care leader or Asst. Care leader in 6 months.

1 Tim 3 says it all

1Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,^a he desires a noble task. 2Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.

Personally, we should not force and push people to be shepherd or make shepherding compulsory for all members.

What I think should be the best way forward is

1. Get people to join bible study group or a same gender bible group if they wish to know more about the bible and set a mature christian as a big bro or sister.

2. Make one-to-one mentoring a privilege. If a person wants a personal mentor let him or her seek out the mentor and if the person wants to mentor someone let him or her make the effort. Good example is Elijah and Elisha. If they are ready God will move the heart

If indeed we have been hurt by the Shepherd experience lets all just forgive and move on. Dont let hurt stop you from trusting people.

Amen

Happy 2011 and my wish

2011-01-26T06:43:00.000-08:00

Its been a long time since i actually logged onto the blog. With each passing year, I really hope that greater things will come out of the HIM movement, which I am still in but have since adopted a more passive observer role

Lets hope the lessons of the past will not be forgotten and we will never make the same mistake again.

Many friends who have left the Hope movement have asked me why i never make the move. I suppose like it or hate it, there are some really good principles that have since been adopted by the HIM movement and I would hate to change for the sake of changing.

There are a couple of churches which I would have considered but there are not in the country i am residing in.

I plan to start blogging again, but this time to share some of my devotion or things i have learned from other teachers and Pastors.

So here's wishing everyone a Happy new year.

A new change

2010-10-02T07:23:00.001-07:00

Its been a really long time since i have been on the blog, everything that was meant to be have been done. I think, I will do some clean up of the blog and start out something new. No point dwelling to much on the past.

Hope in Thailand is still very much everywhere. Hope Bangkok by Rubina website no longer exist. Ps Nimit has started a new church. PN still trying to get back the church he lost. HIM is still finding its own identity.

A few Hope International Church has left the HIM movement, and churches are finding back their own voice again.

So I shall leave it here and may those who have found new and better church continue to grow in the Lord.

Money - the true test of your faith

2010-06-06T08:01:00.000-07:00

I was pondering about this recently and it just seems so coincidental that God was showing me things i never pondered about in the bible. I was speaking to a number of friends today and it just struck me like a thunder bolt.

Of all the greatest test, the test of wealth has always been the key. Most of Jesus parables were dealing with the issue of money. Jesus even affirmed this fact in the bible, that we cannot serve two masters and the two He spoke were God and Mammon ( God of money).

Why is money such an important indicator -

Money is neither good nor bad. But everything in this world needs money for it to work

When we are hungry, we pray and someone bring us out to eat or cook for us. Guess what, it cost money to buy food

When we are ill and have to see doctor, Guess what we need money to go to hospital. If we have insurance, it is still money that bought the insurance

When we need a church building, we pray God answers prayer and people give, guess what, money to buy the building.

So money is the medium and the test, but one of the greatest problem with money is that it has an awesome power to corrupt, it is like a drug, when you have, you want more. Because money can buy you things you always wanted and you thought you never could have.

It is note worthy to point out that Judas was the treasurer, the one who controlled the money for the group, the one who got corrupted by the desire. The fact remains, when we are in contact with money, there is always a desire to own it and to want it.

Thus we should always treat money with care and especially if the money belongs to the church, we should make sure no one ends up like Judas because there was no accountability.
If you really want to know your pastor, just see how he handles money, you can tell more about a person in the way they handle money, then a thousand explanation.

I thought I should bring this up because my friend from years back who have returned to Singapore spoke recently about a Church in Singapore called City Harvest. where the pastor and 17 church leaders were brought to CAD regarding on some issues about money. I really hope that when the investigation is done, the church will be clean. Some years back, I think even Hillsongs from Australia was queried over some transactions

What i am trying to say is this, Pastors are still human, if you give them unlimited access to church fund without proper accountability, one day they might turn to Judas. There is always a reason why we need check and balance. Remember that for anyone in finance, if we knowingly do things which are not proper and above board. You might end being implicated as well.

Make sure whatever you do, it is well documented and written. Especially loans, financial packages, special or noteworthy transactions. Keep it as transparent as possible, this way you will not have to always watch your back.

Judas took the test and he failed. Lets not become like him.

Free Forum to share

2010-05-17T07:11:00.001-07:00

hi everyone,

As promised way back early in my posting days, i did mention that one day I will give people more voice in what is happening around the Hope Movement.

Be it good or bad. Or even sharing of blessing.

I will slowly transition to a more open forum based blog so that people can give their idea and thoughts rather then just me alone.

Of course blessings or encouragement is greatly welcome too.

But this blog will always serve as a voice for the people to allow all Hope and Ex-hope people a common place to share our thoughts.

It is important too to provide a place to find out about our church history. Maybe who knows this will be a place where the history of hope can be found.

Hopefully this way, when leaders try to hide anything, they will think twice.

I will take some time to do a better upgrade to provide a more friendly webpage

Spiritual Fine line

2010-05-09T10:11:00.000-07:00

As some comments have talked about cult like behaviour, I thought I will try to get some materials to put on site for discussion. Of course, the list is not exhaustive but I do believe that sometimes things we do, can border between Christlike and Cultlike in behaviour.

I will attempt to put some teaching we are taught down and maybe hopefully we can address this.

Hope teaching No 1. - This was Dr.J favourite : As long as you can still walk and not tied to the bed and even if you are sick, you should still come to church. By coming to church, you can be prayed for and be healed.

Hope teaching No.2 - We are christian who happens to be student. So, our aim is to be God's ambassador at school. Therefore, in essence our main duty is to bring people to christ and study is "sort of" secondary.

Hope teaching No.3 - We should believe that our church is the best. Because we should be proud of our church. We should never think that we are not good in anything. We should believe we have the best Worship, best teaching, best ministry.

Hope teaching No.4 - We should come for ever activity that the church organize, and be involve as much as you can, even if you have to give up other activities or sports. Of course, attendance sheet is just to get stats.

Hope teaching No 5. - We must get approval from our leaders and go through "proper channel" in all your BGR issues. Non-approval of relationship will result in severe disciplinary punishment. Technically its like arrange marriage marriage only, this time the shepherd and leaders play the " parents".

Hope teaching No 6 - Leaders always knows best, and if you don't understand their decision just obey. Because they are chosen by God.

I suppose what I would like to say is that there is no absolute right or wrong. Just how things are phased and practiced. Anything taken to extreme will be bad for health. There is no doubt about it. Unfortunately, we live in a world where human beings try to use the principles of God to try and integrate with everyday practical living.

To one total obedience is a virtue to be attained, to another its called being brainwashed. Ultimately, I believe we just have to use our own wisdom and come up with our own personal guideline that you believe are within the confines of God's principle.

Hope may believe that church planting and being a church planter is the key, but if you believe that Pastoral care and mercy mission is the way to win the world, then its what God called you.
Some people believe that music can heal and bring the world closer to God, others believe that prayer is the key. There is no one way, no one answer. God gave us choice, so in it he also created diversity, what works for you may not work for another person.

For one thing, God gave us a brain and he gave us logic and wisdom. I am sure He expects us to use it. I am not advocating that Hope teaching is all bad, nor am i saying its the best thing in the world. God's principle never changes, its people that change when they try to box God's principle into prescribed methods.

What do you believe ? Anyway below is an article that maybe can expand our horizon

Warning signs of a destructive cult

Do you know someone in a destructive cult?

Warning signs!

Anyone could attack a group they disagree with by unfairly labeling it a destructive cult. How would you know whether it really were such a cult or not? Isn't there an objective method to evaluate groups for cultic tendencies? Yes. The following early warning signs can help you reasonably determine whether or not a group is likely to be a destructive cult, and if you should be concerned about a friend, coworker, or loved one being involved with it.

The main reason that the following destructive cult tactics are so damaging to both the individual and society is because they debilitate rationality and reduce empathy. Rationality and empathy are indispensable in making good personal and social decisions. History is littered with personal and social catastrophes where a lack of rationality and lack of empathy were its core causes.

Ask yourself if the following criteria apply to the group you are concerned about.

A destructive cult tends to be totalitarian in its control of its members' behavior. Cults are likely to dictate in great detail not only what members believe, but also what members wear and eat, when and where members work, sleep, and bathe, and how members think, speak, and conduct familial, marital, or sexual relationships.
A destructive cult tends to have an ethical double standard. Members are urged to be obedient to the cult, to carefully follow cult rules. They are also encouraged to be revealing and open in the group, confessing all to the leaders. On the other hand, outside the group they are encouraged to act unethically, manipulating outsiders or nonmembers, and either deceiving them or simply revealing very little about themselves or the group. In contrast to destructive cults, honorable groups teach members to abide by one set of ethics and act ethically and truthfully to all people in all situations.
A destructive cult has only two basic purposes: recruiting new members and fund-raising. Altruistic movements, established religions, and other honorable groups also recruit and raise funds. However, these actions are incidental to an honorable group's main purpose of improving the lives of its members and of humankind in general. Destructive cults may claim to make social contributions, but in actuality such claims are superficial and only serve as gestures or fronts for recruiting and fund-raising. A cult's real goal is to increase the prestige and often the wealth of the leader.
A destructive cult appears to be innovative and exclusive. The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the ONLY viable system for change that will solve life's problems or the world's ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to mind control to inhibit their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader and the cult.
A destructive cult is authoritarian in its power structure. The leader is regarded as the supreme authority. He or she may delegate certain power to a few subordinates for the purpose of seeing that members adhere to the leader's wishes. There is no appeal outside his or her system to a greater system of justice. For example, if a schoolteacher feels unjustly treated by a principal, an appeal can be made to the superintendent. In a destructive cult, the leader claims to have the only and final ruling on all matters.
A destructive cult's leader is a self-appointed messianic person claiming to have a special mission in life. For example, leaders of flying saucer cults claim that beings from outer space have commissioned them to lead people away from Earth, so that only the leaders can save them from impending doom.
A destructive cult's leader centers the veneration of members upon himself or herself. Priests, rabbis, ministers, democratic leaders, and other leaders of genuinely altruistic movements focus the veneration of adherents on God or a set of ethical principles. Cult leaders, in contrast, keep the focus of love, devotion, and allegiance on themselves.
A destructive cult's leader tends to be determined, domineering, and charismatic. Such a leader effectively persuades followers to abandon or alter their families, friends, and careers to follow the cult. The leader then takes control over followers' possessions, money, time, and lives.

If you know someone who belongs to a group that demonstrates a significant number of these warning signs and you would like more information on how to deal with destructive cults or mind control, go to www.factnet.org.

The current Hope

2010-04-21T05:57:00.001-07:00

Here is a reply to a comment posted regarding our Hope movement.

I have been observing for awhile now to see any big changes happening in the Hope Movement after the split, I must say we are still getting there.

The Hope Movement have split now for slightly over a year. In Hope Bangkok, there have been big changes happening everyday. Daily you will hear people moving and new churches starting up.

Foundation have split into many smaller churches and are now around 200-300 people. Ps Nimit started a new church as I reported earlier.

Ps PN too have their own issue and split, though its slightly more minor then Foundation. Most split churches have used New Church names to disassociate from Hope Brand name and have either become independent or joined the HIM banner.

Ps PN have been able to go on preaching because no one stood up to make a stand, to inform the Christian circle of his misdeed. In other part of Christiandom, pastor who committed adultery will be asked to step down, but not so for Ps PN.

It does feel every top leader missed the point, PN should never be allowed to take the pulpit without first stepping and proving his integrity and morality. Neither HIM nor Pastors in Thailand have said anything publicly except Ps PK from Hope London, and for that i admire his righteousness, some pastor felt it was too strong, but not me, I call a spade a spade.

Hope's greatest failing is that it always chooses the diplomatic route, instead of standing for what is right. When members sin, we are always quick to pinpoint members sin, but when a leader sin, we are always told to be understanding and be "nice".

In the international scene, under HIM 2 churches have decided to go independent as mentioned in previous article.

Have HIM change ? I think its trying. I see leaders trying to make a difference. We held conference called rediscovering our core. We try to put things right, but as is with big organization everything takes time. Some people have chose to leave Hope instead of waiting, some like me are still waiting to see.

Issues in Hope

Money - Yes money have been a sticking point in Hope, from its inception. We used to have the HGI tithes of 20%, which I have tried asking but no one could account for the money in there. Hope in general have been quite lax in this area i must admit. There is no clear policy or guideline about the use of money in terms of salary package, what is reimbursable cost, etc. Some region do have a guideline on pay package but from my knowledge its up to own church to decide and very region specific - which is all i can say. Some churches are better at handling money and some not so. Hope Singapore would be financially the most stable church. I know this area is a very sticky area and HIM may not want to touch this aspect as of now. I think if i am not wrong, they are trying to set-up a general policy for all HIM churches but its still in the early stage

Shepherding - I don't think anything will change in this area. BGR policy and how we function in the system will always be very subjective. The idea of shepherding is a good one, but the quality and type of advice and shepherding will always be dependent on the shepherd you get. Not all shepherd are the same, because the truth is some do become shepherd too fast and may not have enough experience or understanding to handle sheep. I have always believe, the title of shepherd must be first earned with your life and example.

Transparency and obedience - Transparency is something HIM is trying hard to build. Its still not easy. There is over 20 plus years of Hope Ideology which i must admit are not all good. The problem we have is applying principle into practical everyday living, which is totally impossible. We build rules and regulation we apply across the board, not factoring other circumstances. In principle, we teach people to love and serve God, which is right. But in Hope's understanding serving means - use your time to meet, follow-up, shepherding, leadership training, run care group, church plant, anything else is not important. The truth is God created us all different, with different gifting, different way of life and interest, we love God by putting God central of what we do. We can serve God too by studying doing well at school and be a testimony, we can play music, open business and support the church by other means. Rigidity had always been our problem. We must start to learn from other churches around the world too. Whatever we will be able to break the mold will largely depend on the leaders leading HIM. I suppose this will be awhile before we see any major shift in paradigm

Conclusion

Because Hope HIM is very much still a very "young" organization, which has just gone through a huge split and shaking. I don't foresee significant change that soon. I think we must all understand, if the top leaders hit the wrong note too soon, who knows more churches will decide to come out and become independent. Its really a catch 22 situation . So all i can say is pray and keep faith.

Set a dateline for yourself, if you still don't see the change you desire or course you can go to other church where you can serve better. Don't stay bitter, just become better.

Amen

Hope Legacy

2010-04-17T08:47:00.000-07:00

Its been a while since i wrote on any updates, been thinking about the Hope Movement lately. I suppose over the course of over 25 years, the movement have scarred quite a number of people along the way, reading from the comments, I get a sense that our movement have swept many things under the carpet in the past.

Over the years, in the aim of pushing the 1 million churches by 2015, we have sacrificed many good people pushing them into mission field to reach the ultimate goal. I have lost many good friends burnt out and tired, trying to reach the goal of church planting.

Over more then a decade, I kept the "body count" of burnt out people, because of Dr Joseph and Ps PN pushing their agenda and dreams. Its truly a very fine line between God's call and personal agenda. Jehovah Witness and Mormons are also "Supposedly" spreading the Gospel, sometimes people maybe sincere but sincerely wrong.

For all I know Ps PN and Dr Joseph started out well but got side tracked along the way - one by the love of power ( Dr Joseph ) and one by the love woman ( Ps PN) - the saddest thing is the people in the Hope Bangkok church still don't know or don't believe Ps PN committed adultery.
Even big pastors around the world have absolutely no clue, i don't know if HIM should take a more bold stand - we preach holiness and integrity. What are leader's responsibility when you see our own brother's and sister's still living in a lie, not knowing the severity of the sin the leaders have committed.

I recently read a blog from a non-hope person, stating the Hope Church split because of financial and political issue. It does tell me many people are still unwilling to speak up, but why ? Should the leaders from the ex-hope take a bolder stand and not be too diplomatic and forgo those niceties ?

There are still good leaders in HIM and those that truly walk by faith, over the course of this split and the trials and tribulations of Hope, strong leaders have emerged. I really hope we can get rid of the stigma of the Hope legacy, there are some good principles we can keep but we should set a new direction, a new name hopefully. Its getting confusing sometimes, when you see Hope Church in certain places but they belong to different factions. Can u imagine 2-3 hope churches in one same place calling by the same name, same mission statement but run by different head ?

I do wish besides discovering our core this new chapter, we can set out doing something different. We should keep the Shepherding system, the follow-up and Cell system, but do away with the elitist attitude of " Leaders knows best attitude", because sometimes leaders don't know best. When Peter made mistake regarding partaking of food with Gentiles, Paul still could rebuke him and show him what he did was wrong.

In all honest truth, there were some bad choices and decisions made, leaders were promoted because of loyalty rather then spirituality. By loyalty i mean blind loyalty, Leader is always right and never wrong. When leader is wrong its because God's will changed.

I know in the blog, there have been some heated arguments about churches and pastors, but who am i to judge. God must have His reasons for everything. As leaders of God's flock, we will ultimately be accountable to God himself, no one can blame others and try to shift the responsibility away.

What i am trying to say is this, we should always cover the very area which destroyed Hope, the legacy left by the leaders of the movement. Have anyone every wondered, if blessing flow from Top down, what about curses ? Meaning every Pastor and leader who have been in Hope will ultimately face these test - Money, Power and Lust, Keep watch and pray so that we will pass this test.

I know there have been comments on these issues in the blog, I do pray its not all true, if it is it will be so saddening. I really Hope these is not the legacy we are going to leave behind as a movement.

I am praying this is a start of a new chapter, hopefully for those friends who have left Hope, may God give you strength.

Latest from Hope

2010-03-24T22:19:00.000-07:00

Yes in case you have not heard. There have been some changes in our movement. Its confusing with everyone using the same name as such.

Hope Bangkok now is only about 400-500 people. Ps Nimit has started a new church due to some direction differences. The Hope Bangkok Website has of course changed. There is a new Pastor taking chrage now in Hope Place

There are I think 2-3 new churches which stared 2 i believe from Hope Bangkok and possibly one that came out from PN.

Also internationally, Both Hong Kong and Hope Sydney is not under HIM banner, regardless though I do wish them well. I think in a more positive light at least it allows the Pastor to lead the church and set his own direction. In any case the kingdom of God still advances.

I really do hope the movement will adopt a new name, so that it will avoid any confusion. Seeing that PN is planning to launch his international crusade to win back lost ground. It took them 20 years to establish the Hope Movement. I suppose it will take as long to do that as well.

I will add in the new website links too. So we can see how our movement have changed and grow. I believe positive things will come out

One of the new link is called the Alive Church in Bangkok

New Changes in Hope Bangkok

2010-03-16T17:39:00.000-07:00

It does seems that there are more things happening in Bangkok. Many more pastors from Hope Foundation and also Hope Bangkok under PN are splitting and starting their own church.

In bangkok now, where there was one huge church Hope Bangkok, there are now at least a dozen or more splinter churches that have started. I think this is a really good thing and i am sure it will be a start of revival in Bangkok

and in case you have not heard Ps Nimit has also started a new church. I will post up the new churches in Bangkok

I will post more details once i have more information.

I have also read article online mentioning about PN but every article seems to miss out the fact that PN had to step down because of adultery.

News in Bangkok

2010-01-26T05:55:00.000-08:00

Here are some news from Hope Bangkok,

Apparently now Hope has send people to Hong Kong to start Hope Church. Well, it would be interesting to see 2 different Hope in Hong Kong.

Hope Hong Kong currently I believe decided to go independent, so it would be an interesting development happening in Hong Kong. I wonder if Hope Hong Kong remembered to register.

Opening Hope of Hong Kong

On Nov 27^th Pastor EE Nipa Saeboon and team traveled to Hong Kong with the purpose of pioneering the church. As of now our family in Hong Kong already consists of more than 30 people. Pastor Nipa is humble and always willing to sacrifice for the kingdom of God, and she has now been entrusted by Pastor PN who has placed her in charge of Hope of Hong Kong Church. If you are passing through Hong Kong or moving to Hong Kong, you may find more details by contacting

News about PN ....

Pastor PN General Secretary of CFAM

Towards the end of Oct. 2009, Pastor Phisanunart Srithawong [PN] of Hope of Bangkok Church was chosen for the position of General Secretary of “Christ For Asia Movement” [CFAM]. CFAM an organization which many of the large churches in Asia have come together in, has a base in Manila Philippians.

Don’t forget to pray for Pastor PN’s good friend; he will be running for president in the upcoming May 2010 elections. Pastor Eddie is Pastor of the “Jesus is Lord Church” in Manila, Philippians. In March of 2009 Dr Cindy Jacobs Had a word of prophecy for Pastor Eddie and encouraged him. Dr. Cindy is supportive and teaches the concept of the seven Mt. to encourage believers to be a blessing to their society, politics being one of the seven.

Principle of Financial Management II

2010-01-25T23:10:00.000-08:00

Salary and Allowance

The great ambiguity of these 2 terms are often intertwined together, that sometimes we mix the two term up. In my opinion, an allowance is provided on top of any assistance the church gives to its staff.

For example, a full-time staff could choose Cash Salary or simply Church support as a basic remuneration. As both would undoubtedly serve the same function.

Salary is given so that people can use the money to pay for Food, lodging, transport and all daily necessities, if the church provide already provide lodging, transport and reimbursement of food then its considered salary. And amount given beyond these would be termed an allowance.

In my opinion, it is always good to separate Church and personal items as these would create better accountability. As pastor or full-time staff, we should always consider when doing reimbursement if the items are for Church of personal.

Some of the most common gray area during Ps PN days were reimbursement for entertainment expenses, petrol. For smaller churches where church would support the rental of church office and staff housing, it is always important to try and keep the items black and white.

When we buy items and reimbursed it under church we need to consider if the item used is mainly for the church for their own family and persnal use. If church buys a car or van, is the vehicle used more for personal and family purpose or used mainly for church purpose.

My recommendation is always to keep church and personal vehicle separate so that people cannot say we are abusing our authority. Unless the Vehicle is given to the staff and is not part of church repsonsiblity then Staff becomes responsible for its maintenance and insurance.

The issue in Hope is that since everyone is also serving almost at the same capacity as the pastor meaning going to meet people for shepherding, meetings, spending money or their own sheep. If the full-time staff starts to claim reimbursement then everyone in Church would therefore by precedent be able to claim, unless of course, only full-time staff do the shepherding and follow-up.

Thus i think one of the biggest change we must consider is to keep money as black and white as possible so that no one can say we are abusing our authority.

Principle of Good financial management

2010-01-06T05:27:00.000-08:00

Firstly, Happy new year to all. I thought after a nice holiday season we should start afresh and discuss something new. Hopefully we can get some contribution from different people

It has always been my belief that as a christian, we have to handle God's finance with utmost integrity and respect. Good financial practice is a sign of maturity in a christian and the key to greater blessing from God

Most parables Jesus dealt with in the bible often relates to the stewardship of money, because Jesus knew that Money though is neither good nor bad has a powerful effect on people and that everything in this world revolves around the use of money from buying a house, tithing, building a church, having enough food to eat and clothes to wear. Nothing in this world is free, thus money is the key medium in this world.

Because money can be such a powerful "drug" when not properly used. It is imperative that as Christian we need to recognise the importance of proper accountability.

Here are some important tips that we must never forget

1. Ensure a good balance in your church board and allow a good mix of people. Hope Singapore have a very good website which have a varied board to ensure impartiality

2. Keep a good budget and try to stay close to it. If expenses deviates too much, ensure that the board is well informed.

3. Have clear Salary package and guideline. This area have been the biggest headache even in the corporate place. We need to ensure that clear salary package is written in the contract to avoid misunderstanding and especially grey areas

4. All churches should have an agreed guideline for reimbursements, so that all staff will know what can and cannot be reimbursed. Providing ambiguous guideline often causes confusion.

Eg. Can we reimbursed food when Church staff meet up the sheep ? Can Church staff claim reimbursement for Church camp ? What about mobile phone, cars and petrol, which is very much a part of church ministry ?

There is no hard and fast rules, but we do need to make it clear to the people. Hope BKK failed in this area that is why Hope Church was split because of how PN and Dr J used Church money.

5. Try and keep personal cost and church cost as separate as possible. The more we mix it up the more dangerous it becomes to cross the line. If unsure, I believe it is always the responsiblity of the church staff or Pastor to ask the board and account before the money is reimbursed.

6. Have annual audit and ensure transparency in all church accounts, this way members will feel that leaders have nothing to hide. When leaders refuse or fail to be forthcoming when approach about church finance usually more often then not, there is something not quite right.

Finally, dont't be afraid to ask, the leaders owe it to the members to be open and accountable in the church finance. Good financial practice are hard to do, even the corporate failed so many times, as a church we need to set and example and be the light to the the way.

If you think that there is something i miss out feel free to add in the comments. Or if you got something to share or a testimony. That would be good too.

Hope Perth Summary and History (Updated)

2009-12-20T14:32:00.000-08:00

I have taken sometime and also from my knowledge of the Hope History to provide a quick summary of Hope Perth . As there are many comments which has alot of emotions running. I Hope by providing only factual accounts and summarising the issues in a neutral way that we can be objective. I believe everyone has a point.

History

Hope Perth began very early on and was among the first few international churches started by Hope Bangkok, under Dr Joseph Kriengsak. He preached during one of the OCF camp and challenged many people to start a church. I believe one of the teachings was One Man One World.

The first leader was called S.C. But the leader left the movement but still resides in Perth . Leaders from Singapore were then assigned to comeover to help out in the interim. Then a leader from Canberra decided to heed the call and come over to Perth to help the church. He was indeed ordained as a Pastor and its a title he held and conferred by HGI. The church at that time was around 40 over people strong. The number was as high as 70 people at the time

Due to personal reasons he had to change his role but was still serving in the Church, and interim leaders were asked to help out, until a new coordinator came from Malaysia, she was challenged by the Pastor from KL to come over. She held the co-coordinator role until around 2002-03, where she decided to return back to KL, there are a number of reasons given for her decision to leave to KL not just about the people in Perth. The number I believe was around the 30-50 people region depending on the season.

As in most Oceania Churches, the numbers usually drop during the holiday period as most are student dominated and church number usually drop when Student return home for holiday.

During this time, a family from Bangkok was challenged to go to perth. This family was the pitavanik family. Ps Stephen was asked to come over and head the church. He came over on a student visa and as mentioned by YLC regarding remuneration, which i believe should be a factual account as his comments were never attacked by anyone.

Taken from YLC post :

The remuneration packages for Pastor Stephen and his predecessor were exactly that – a package, never 100% cash in hand. Accommodation costs like rent and the electricity, gas and water expenses were paid directly to the landlord or creditor without going through the pastor’s bank account. Original invoices and receipts were retained on file. The pastor would only receive the food, petrol and honorarium allowances by cheque. All church cheques were crossed “not negotiable” and had to be banked into an account. I left detailed written summaries on the church’s accounting files that show how the amounts on each cheque were calculated. Pertinent details were written on the relevant cheque butts. A clear paper trail existed for audit purposes.

The actual amounts paid to Pastor Stephen and his predecessor were not disclosed to the church generally or made publicly available. For the reasons set out above and in instalment 2, I think we should be comfortable with that position.

In my view it was sufficient that during my watch:

a) the system of checks and balances I have explained was in place and functioning;
b) the church’s authorised signatories who signed cheques with me knew the actual amounts being paid and had no objections; and
c) the actual amounts paid to the pastors every financial year were included at the end of that financial year on the revenue and expense statements made available to the church leadership team for them to examine.

Here are some actual numbers for the accountants:

In the 2003-2004 financial year, Hope Perth spent $38,044.49 against revenue of $46,888.98. Of the $38,044.49 spent, $13,780.52 went to supporting the pastors. Not earth shattering numbers. Of the $8,844.49 operating surplus, $7,351.05 (20%) went to HGI and $735.11 (2%) went to Hope Australia.

In theory this left a $758.33 surplus. In reality the position was more challenging as $1,907.95 of the revenue was comprised of interest earned on the money in the building fund. While the building fund and interest earned on its principal was preserved, we had in effect run a $1,149.62 deficit to fund regular activities.This was as far as I was prepared to let things go.

In the following 2004-2005 financial year (my last since my family left not too long thereafter) we had tithes and offerings revenue of $55,881.63 and spent a total of $54,347.83. There were also other sources of income. The operating surplus exceeded $1,533.80 and compensated for the deficit the previous year. In addition, interest was earned on the principal in building fund. The entire building fund of approximately $32,000-$35,000 was intact.

In 2004-2005, Pastor Stephen received a larger package than his predecessor. That was logical. He has a wife and 2 children to support and Pastor Hannah, Joseph and Benjung contributed significantly to the spiritual well being of the church. The increased revenue had allowed me to present a larger remuneration package. A package I would have been delighted to present to his predecessor.

( unquote)

Conclusion

It is in my belief that Financial numbers were presented and were available to anyone since the inception of the church. Though it might not be on a regular basis, I believe it is Hope standard practice to show at least the figure once a year even in Hope Bangkok.

Hope Perth during the whole period of its existence average around 40. Hope perth grew under Ps Stephen from around an average of 40 people to an average of around 100 from 2003- current.

Issues did arise, as per what was discussed and there are number of different opinion as to the reasons why this occurred.

Hope Bangkok Church the reason for the blog.

2009-12-07T07:07:00.000-08:00

It is interesting to note many of the comments being posted regarding the Hope perth issue. Just to make it clear, i am not anti-HIM nor Church which do the right thing.

The biggest issue why this blog exist is because Ps PN and Dr Joseph Kriengsak is still trying to manipulate churches to try and restall their power in the previous Hope Movement. They have also recently align themselves with some other church planting movement. I saw a number of links from their website - these are the Friends of Hope

1. Apostolic Fellowship international
2. City Harvest Church
3. K.A.N.A.P
4. Project Amazon
5. Hosanna
6. Jesus is Lord Fellowship
7 Kings Christian Centre
8. Living Faith Fellowship

I believe not many people or the pastor know actually what is going on in the Hope Movement
I think HIM should actually write a formal letter to explain the situation. If you have friends in the these churches, you should let them know.

I think PN is trying to get more churches to be affiliated to Hope to help make them look good.

Just one fact. PN committed adultery and refused to step from leadership to be restored properly and instead split the church, would be sufficient for the pastors I believe.

As for the Hope Perth issue, I can only cast an open verdict there are alot of points and comments about the pastor. It will really be up to HIM to decide what is the best foot forward.

All I can say is as long as the Pastor walk with God the Church will grow, Pastor will make mistake and to grow one have to learn from ones own mistake, so that the church will grow under him or her.

Now regarding the Perth issue,

For those who left Hope Perth because of the Pastor, if he did do anything wrong do not worry, God ultimately will decide, trust me nothing is more stressful than a stagnating church, because after all that is why we have a pastor, to guide and grow God's church. You wouldn't belive the stress of seeing a church with the same number for 6-7 years.

For those who choose to stay in Hope perth and believe that the pastor is the best thing that happen to Perth, all i can say is then let the growth of the church be a statement of your confidence.

We can all argue till we are blue in the face, but ultimately just like Hope Bangkok, when Ps PN sin against God by committing adultery, stealing God's money to help finance Dr Joseph Kreingsak and leading his sheep astray by false teaching. Then i assure you, God's judgement hand will be upon the leader just like he split Hope Movement.

All I can say only TIME will TELL.

Hope Perth Church - Discussion ( Updated)

2009-11-11T05:31:00.000-08:00

I have updated the post discussion with the relevant article as the other article was about something different. There are now 101 comments on the Hope perth issue and would try to summarize the 101 comments as best as i can. If in anyway there is doubt over the summary do kindly just read all the comments in previous post. I will take out personal discussion between commentators to try and put a succinct and concise summary on issues that were raised and are still being discussed. I will also post a comment regarding the current situation.

Issues that were raised were mainly about Policies implemented in Hope Perth Church, finance issues and issues relating to the Pastor in charge.

Quote from white Knight

1. Did he stop people from going and attending people's wedding once you leave church ?? Yes or no ?
2. Did he really wanted to buy an airplane ? ( Yes or No ? )- even at the expense of disobeying the top leaders ? Yes or No ?
3. Does he take people feedback and use it in the sermon without first talking to the person. Yes or No ?
4. Was the financial issue mentioned really true ? What was the type of benefit he is getting from the church ? Is there every a full disclosure of spending and transparency of account ?

Quote from Just a friendly HIM friend

1. I believe Hope Perth was never at 20+. Maybe during holiday period.
But I think we should also give the other leaders before Ps Stephen who lead Hope perth some credit.

Quote from Genesis, VIC, XXX, etc : Summary on what i gather

1. General Half-truth being spoken most of the time by leaders - I believe the issues are diverse it may be on a case to case issue. ( Have to read the blog ) - you have to read the comments
2. A few issues were also raised into the purpose and existence of the Emergency Fund and Church Building Fund and why there are no more accounts
3. Also an issue was raised about AGM where not every member were invited but only selected group of people
3 Issues regarding Church mission car and how it came about raised by Witness and King Bonanza which is being revealed YLC

"As the church grew in numbers from 20+ to 100+, he started mission trips to further parts of WA along with his leadership team, so he requested to get a car for mission trip, but was rejected by the person who in charged of the finance. Frankly, I do not have the in-between details as to why the person rejected the purchase for the mission car, what I can see and testify is Ps Stephen's heartbeat to win many souls for God, and he has been consistent through the years I know him." - By Witness

King Bonza said...Witness, please help me with my memory.

You wrote that Pastor Stephen’s request for the mission car was rejected by the person in charge of finance. How then did Pastor Stephen pay for the dark purple Kia Carnival which he bought just before Pastor Prayuth visited to teach the worship team? Pastor Stephen couldn’t access the church’s money then without help could he?

I think among all these 57 comments these were the more pertinent questions relating to Hope Perth Church. - I will try to sum it up as these simple points that are being discussed by both side of the party. Please bear in mind this is not exhaustive but a quick summary of what is being discussed.

1. Church finance policy

Remuneration and benefit for pastor
Mission Car ( still being discussed by YLC)
Emergency fund and Church building fund
Transparency of church accounts

There have been some doubt as to how money was spend in the church and the benefits provided for the pastor. One commentator mentioned that Pastor did claim to want to take-over and be in charge of finance and he did preached that in the sermon, while another said that he handed it over to someone to take charge. There were claims of high pay and benefits including housing allowance, provision of the use of 2 vehicle for the family and also higher pay due to his Visa requirement. Emergency fund was mentioned and one commentator asked why it was stopped and never mentioned again. There was also an apparent in the transparency of the accounts and good policies to handle finance.

2. Integrity issue with the pastor

talking about people who left church without their knowledge
Forbidding people from associating with those who left church including wedding
using people's feedback in sermon without their consent
wanting a buy a plane and learning to fly even when Hope eldership did not agree.

This seems to be a black and white case, as both side did not disagree on the policy Pastor Stephen implemented but only on how it was done and implemented. The plane issue was discussed and both side though seem to have differing opinion as to how and when the plane will be bought. Pastor using feedback or using stories without people's consent was another thing brought up but no responses were varied

Conclusion

In all many points were raised and does seem valid, people must feel really strongly to have raised such an issue concerning the pastor. As i myself have also not come across any Hope Church members mentioning about their pastor.

As a leader we must always remember we need to be always live up to what we have attain, flaming people and telling Half-truth will only get people more riled up especially if the stories make one party seem good and the other seem bad. As for finance, i do suggest a better policy and more independent board to ensure greater transparency.

Whatever the Pastor from Hope Perth is doing the right thing or wrong thing only time will tell, he should take the experience he has from Thailand, both the success and failures and learn to be a better person.

I do think if he does change, i am sure people will be willing to forgive him. No man is perfect and we do not expect one to be, but we should always strive towards perfection, learning from our mistakes and become a better person in the end.

We are all responsible

2009-11-10T01:45:00.000-08:00

From all the comments I have read recently, there seems to be some slight elements of the Old Hope BKK approach and ideals. Here is some thoughts which may help all of us.

1. Leaders are also human and do face temptation, giving leaders too much power without proper accountability is not helping the leader. Dr J and PN are case in point. If in doubt over finance ask for clarification. Not just the leaders words, but a proper disclosure. Most churches will have financial statement audited by proper accounting firm.

2. Listen to the complaints and check out the stories. We often say there is no smoke without a fire. If you see people complaining the same thing and it is not an isolated case, but one which constantly resurface. Maybe there is some truth to what people are saying and make your own investigation. Don't just listen to one side just because they are leaders. That was the problem the catholic church had when boys complained of sexaul abuse by the priest but people choose to ignore until the issue was brought to light.

3. If in doubt over issues or certain behaviour, speak to higher leader, every pastor in HIM have someone overseeing them. Speak to the higher authority clarify the blibical way. If something seems not right, dont sweep it under the carpet. There are always some truth to peoples complaint. The term rebellious and bad spirit is used to often to cover the leaders fault and issues. Use our own judgment. God says he wants to transform our mind not remove it. Remember if more than 3 groups of people are highlighting the same issue and over a period.. it cannot be because of bad spirit... there must be something.. investigate... God holds all of us accountable ..

Remember total Obedience and Blind Loyalty to the leader regardless of their life is not a sign of a good christian. We can be sincere but sincerely wrong. You will ultimately be judged by what you choose to do.

I think crucially, we have to answer to God for our action or inaction.

Here are some signs that something is not right in the church, it is not exhaustive but it will at least cause an alarm in your mind to probe further.

1. When the church is bering evasive about their finances and do not have good transparency. Case in point BBK church. Good churches have transparent accounts where people can see anytime and have Salary package stated clearly... some churches actually inform their members the package of their pastor. - Salary and Benefits provided.. do you know yours??

2. When people start living church not because they are backsliding but because of leadership issues. If just one group or a couple of people leave it is understandable, but when you see, different groups of people from the youth to the family starting to leave the church over a period of time. Then some alarm bells shoudl start ringing . Find out the issues. and see if there is a basis for their complain.

3. The church is having turnover. Meaning there is alot of people come but also alot of people leaving, so the church never grow. numercially and if it is over a period of time .. from 1 yr to maybe 3 years.. then.. something is wrong somewhere. We need to ask why .

Early diagnosis... will hopefully prevent a similiar split again in Hope Movement. Remember members, our pastors life is in our hands.. we are all responsible to ensure the pastor's and the church well being.

Biblediscuss post for Ps Stephen

2009-11-09T06:01:00.001-08:00

For those who have asked me to post the english translation of the thai post by Ps Stephen. Unfortunately, there are only 55 post showing up in the forum even though 171 were posted by him.

I have looked at the post and its just ordinary discussion. The other posts pertaining to PK letter and Rubina action were not found.

So unless there is something unless there is something that needs translation i would just leave it for now.

And FYI, there was a post I made someone which i had of the HGI eldership meeting discussion something to do with finance about Ps Stephen and also I believe something to do with flying. The note are somewhere in the blog and also in my files somewhere. I will repost it if i find it.

In any case, I suppose just another case of Hope Bangkok Trained pastor. I think, the people in Perth would know more. Will leave it as that on my side.

Ciao

Hope related videos

2009-11-07T16:45:00.000-08:00

Here is some youtube of PN. He is preaching in Nigeria and Ps Nimit from the other Camp...

The role of a pastor

2009-11-06T08:39:00.000-08:00

I have been reading the comments from my previous article about HIM pastor's going to Thailand and did not expect a topic generating from that article.

From the comments, it does seems that people are not concerned with the going on in the particular HIM church. I must say, I did hear abit of news too, I do know from previous discussion on the biblediscuss.com which is used mainly by the Thai people.

There was a heated debate regarding Ps PK letter to PN, and from the conversation I did thought he was on PN side. The Ps in question is a Hope Bangkok trained pastor through and through, the style and approach nevertheless would not differ much. As the concepts are picked from Hope Bangkok.

In truth, not every Pastor are the same, not every HIM pastor thinks the same and will do the same thing. God made us all different. But I do think that one thing as Pastor we must always do is never first to blame the people for bad spirit but always check on ourselves when things go pear shaped.

The problem with churches is that when people are not agreeable on certain issues, its not always bad spirit. Yes, there may be your occasion of few negative people.. BUT.. what if not just one or two are feeling the same. Then it cannot be the people, it should be the leader who needs a check, we can't say the whole world is wrong and I am right.

The key is this, whatever church you are in.. when you start seeing people from students, profeesionals and even families that is voicing some concern about your stlye, It is time we need to start a careful on ourselves.

To hid under the sand and pretend that the rest of the world is full of bad spirit people. Then we maybe living in denial. Therefore as a pastor, we hold more accountable in our actions because God mentions int he bible that HE who teaches are judge more severely.

If this has been a problem in the church, i really hope the issues can be resolved and sorted out. Regardless, as Pastor we should set a better example not otherwise.

Hopefully things will get better for those in the affected area.

Bible Conference in Thailand

2009-10-29T08:17:00.000-07:00

The bible conference attended by 2 HIM speakers for our HIM churches in Bangkok

The Core - คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพระคัมภีร์

Thursday, October 8, 2009 at 1:56pm

แจ้งปรับกำหนดการเร็วขึ้น

8.00 - 8.30 ลงทะเบียนเข้าอบรม
8.30 เริ่มอธิษฐานและเข้าสู่โปรแกรมการอบรม

ขอให้พี่น้องทุกท่านที่เข้าอบรม พยายามมาก่อนเวลา
เนื่องจากจำนวนผู้เข้าอบรมในตอนนี้มีเพิ่มมากขึ้น
ที่นั่งอาจจะไม่เพียงพอได้

การมาก่อนเวลาจะทำให้ทีมงานได้จัดเตรียมอำนวยความสะดวก
ในเรื่องที่นั่งการเข้าอบรมให้พี่น้องได้ก่อนถึงเวลาจริง

ขอพระเจ้าอวยพระพรพี่น้องทุกท่านให้ได้รับพระพรสูงสุดจากการอบรม
"The Core-คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพระคัมภีร์"

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เรียนเชิญ พี่น้องคริสเตียนทุกท่าน

เข้าร่วมงานสัมมนาพระคัมภีร์ ในหัวข้อที่น่าสนใจและสำคัญมากๆสำหรับการดำเนินชีวิตคริสเตียน

"คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพระคัมภีร์"
วันศุกร์ที่ 23 ตุลาคม 2009 นี้ เวลา 8.30 - 17.30
และวันอาทิตย์ ที่ 25 ตุลาคม 2009 เวลา 13.30 - 16.00 น.

ณ คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา กรุงเทพ
อัตราค่าสมัคร 100 บาท

Bangkok, The Core 2009, Oct 23
" คริสตจักรที่มีแก่นแท้ตามพระคัมภีร์ "

วิทยากรรับเชิญจากต่างประเทศ

Dr. Brendan Kirby

อ.ดร.เบรนดอน เคอบี้
ดร.เบรนดอน เป็นนักวิทยาศาสตร์(ฟิสิกส์) สังกัด กระทรวงกลาโหมของรัฐบาลออสเตรเลียในปัจจุบัน
นอกจากเป็น ศบ.คจ.ที่อดิเลย์แล้ว ข้อมูลอื่นๆ ของท่านดังนี้

Dr. Brendan Kirby is the pastor of church in Adelaide. Dr. Kirby was
born again in 1984. He joined in 1991 and started Church
in Adelaide in October 1998 with his wife Helen (whom he married in
1994). He overseas 7 churches in South Australia and Western
Australia (WA), and has been responsible for bringing some churches
in Liberia and in Democratic Republic of Congo into the Movement. He and Nigel
recently planted a church in Esperance. Brendan currently works
as a part time research scientist, 3 days a week, and serves as a
pastor in his remaining time.

Ps. Stephen Pitavanik

Pastor Stephen Pitavanik is the man of faith who has a strong vision to plant churches since year 1985. He has the gift of teaching the Word of God, in an expository manner. Through his ministry of teaching, God has transformed the hearts and lives of many.

He is also highly recognised for laying clear foundations and principles of Christian doctrines in people’s lives and to the church. Under his leadership, many leaders have been raised up to serve God together in a great unity.

He enjoys talking with people and makes them feel at home in the family of Perth. His pastoring heart shows to all in love and care for them holistically.

Pastor Stephen is a caring father and husband to his family. He and with his wife, Hannah, alongside with their two children, Joseph and Benjung, set the great example in serving God together actively reiterates Joshua 24: 15b “As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

อ.สิทธิพล ปีตะวนิค หรือ Pastor Stephen ในด้านการศึกษาพระวจนะ ท่านจบการศึกษาด้านศาสานศาสตร์และการรับใช้ระดับปริญญาตรีที่ Harvest West Bible College ณ เมืองเพิร์ธ ประเทศออสเตรเลีย และยังได้รับการอบรมหลักสูตรต่างๆทางพระคัมภีร์จากหลายสถาบันในเพิร์ธ เช่น Riverview Bible College, Western Australian Bible College และสมัยเป็นผู้เชื่อใหม่ในปี 1986 ได้เดินทางไปศึกษาพระคัมภีร์ที่รร.พระคริสต์ธรรม Tung Ling Bible College ประเทศสิงค์โปร์ หลังจากได้ศึกษาจบหลักสูตรเตรียมผู้รับใช้จากประเทศไทยในเวลานั้น ในด้านการรับใช้ อ.สตีเฟ่น มีประสบการณ์บุกเบิก และก่อตั้งคริสตจักรหลายแห่งในประเทศไทย และต่างประเทศ ในประเทศไทยเช่นบุกเบิกคริสตจักรในลำปาง สตูล หาดใหญ่ สุไหงโกลก เคยเป็นผู้นำดูแลกลุ่มคริสตจักรในเจ็ดจังหวัดภาคใต้ของประเทศไทย ปัจจุบันดำรงตำแหน่งเป็นศิษยาภิบาล (Senior Pastor) คริสตจักร Perth Christian Church, Australia ท่านเป็นผู้มีของประทานในการบุกเบิก วางรากฐานคริสตจักร และเทศนาเชิงอรรถาธิบาย โดยปรารถนาที่จะเห็นนิมิตรพระมหาบัญชาขององค์พระเยซูคริสต์สำเร็จในโลกในระยะเวลาอันใกล้นี้

PROFESSIONAL BACKGROUND :
1) Export Promotion Manager of President Agri Trading Co.,Ltd. Thailand (Saha PattanaPibul Interholding Group of Companies)
2) Export Consultant for many Plastic Bags Factories in Thailand)

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คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา
(Church of Covenant)

อาคาร ชุมนุมสหกรณ์เครดิตยูเนี่ยนแห่งประเทศไทย
สถานที่ : ตั้งอยู่ระหว่างซอยรามคำแหง 100 และ 102
สุขาภิบาล 3
(ห้องประชุมใหญ่ชั้น 3)

แผนที่ คริสตจักรแห่งพันธสัญญา กรุงเทพ
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=110057703588806982978.00046c792e4068bae7473&ved=0CAkQnAUwAA&sa=X&ei=oJPNSsLGCZC6vAP87PnmCQ

สอบถามข้อมูลเพิ่มเติม ได้ที่
http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/aucharavesarachkitti
http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/Luke
http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/chidarunteepjirungkul
http://churchcovenant.ning.com/profile/VeerasakJitareesatian

ที่มา
http://www.churchofcovenant.com

A change is happening in Bangkok

2009-10-29T07:52:00.001-07:00

Yes, I have been told that it seems one thing good that came out of this split with Hope Bangkok and the big issue in Bangkok is that, I think God is trying to relight the fire in Bangkok, where once there was only Hope Church dominating the Thailand scene, this split have helped created many neutral churches that i believe will only be Good for Thailand.

No matter how PN and Dr.J try to get back those churches that split from the movement, i believe this move is caused by the hand of God. Hope as a movement was getting too big and too many bureaucracies and efficient management of both financial and human resources. So instead of one Big church under Dr. Kriengsak and Ps PN from Hope Bangkok, God had allowed this split so that more leaders can rise up from within Bangkok.

As of today, there are many new churches breaking from Hope Movement under both Hope Church in Bangkok.

A close in bangkok told me that we have HIM pastors now going to the bible conference happening currently in Bangkok. And a number of new churches have decided to join under HIM wings, but will remain autonomous. I believe the new one is called Church of Convenant. I just read it on their website. http://www.churchofcovenant.com/

Its mostly in thai but they have a link to HIM website...

Well bible says, what devil meant to destroy, God will use it for his work.

I believe God will open up Bangkok as more churches sprout up and pastors start to take the lead. And hopefully those training they receive will help them build stronger churches in Bangkok

Hope Hong Kong I think has decided to be independent. Still I believe we are all one big family. May God also help them build something in Hong Kong. I did not see their name in the HIM blog and from my source, they might decided to be independent.

** I dont know but it seems that PN is still going to many countries to preach, i think recently to Africa. Well. that i wont comment.

An article - Church Horror Stories

2009-10-26T22:23:00.000-07:00

Below is a recent article posted by one commentator

A church horror story

Q. I've been curious about what your take on my current situation would be. My family has been attending a new church for about ten months. We don't agree with some of the pastor's teachings (I've been down the "works" path and refuse to go back) but we are there mainly to give our children a church family as they have many friends in our homeschooling community who go to that church. I feel I get my spiritual nourishment from many different places and I didn't have a problem not getting "fed" at "church" so to speak.

Well, a few months ago during a camping trip it came out that I didn't agree with everything the pastor said. I tried to downplay it because this is a small, close knit church. I knew from my past church experiences that there was no sense in expressing my differences to church leadership because they would not change. They worship their pastor and believe what he says is not to be questioned.

After Bible study Wednesday night the pastor asked me to stay behind and everyone left. There was just the pastor, another man and me (my husband was not there that night). The pastor told me that I needed to decide if he was going to be my spiritual teacher. He used Hebrews 13:17 to tell me that I needed to obey him -- that even if I disagreed with him I needed to trust him. And if I did disagree, I needed to be quiet about it.

A couple of weeks earlier he had given a sermon (directed at me) about how there was someone in the group who didn't agree with what was being taught and who was causing problems. He said that "this person" needs to repent.

Responding to his interrogation on Wedensday night, I told the pastor I really didn't look at him as my spiritual mentor, although I loved and respected him and his walk with the Lord. I didn't say anything negative. I told him I didn't think it was a problem for people to discuss what they believe or discuss other scriptural viewpoints -- because "iron sharpens iron." But he made it very clear that Hebrews 13:17 commands me to come "under him" and to be quiet. He said that he does not want division in his church. He also advised me to stop listening to sermons from other pastors and teachers so that I wouldn't get confused. I told him I didn't feel confused at all. God is HUGE to me and doesn't fit into any box. I love what God is doing in everyone's life and I love learning and growing. I don't want to be limited to one man's teaching.

I wasn't hurt by what he said, though it was painful to sit there -- he was a coward in my book to not talk to my husband and me together. I was, however, hurt by how the people in the church knew what was going on, and I didn't. When my kids asked where I was, the church leaders' kids told my kids I was getting kicked out of the church. These were supposed to be my friends.

This whole episode is actually quite comical except for the fact that I have five young kids who are hurting on the inside because they will not be able to hang out with their friends anymore. What a mess for a testimony of Christian love. I later found out that one family had told their kids not to talk to mine -- but the kids did anyway when the parents weren't around.

So, with all that said, what do you think about my "submitting" to the pastor? By the way, obviously, I'm not going back. I don't think it's healthy for my kids to be under that kind of leadership. Yet part of me wants to go back and apologize to the people if they thought I was trying to cause a problem. That was truly not my intent.

Thanks for your input, Greg. I always enjoy your answers and respect your interpretation.

A. I guess I should not be shocked when I hear reports such as yours. After all, I know it's happening, so how can I be surprised? You ask for my input. Here goes. Your relationship with God is being damaged. God is being misrepresented to you. From what you have said about this situation, I can see nothing for which you should apologize.

If more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.

Leave. Don't go back. Nothing at all, in terms of a relationship with a brick and mortar church (church attendance, activities, outings, camping trips, church "friendships" -- etc.) is better than what you describe. Stay at home if need be -- if more people boycotted such Christ-less hell holes that call themselves a church then perhaps legalistic religion would realize the pathetic product of its dogma and control.

I know about this kind of authoritarianism and the lasting impact it usually has on our relationship with God. I experienced a similar kind of manipulation and brow-beating, guilt trips, and transfers of blame -- for many years. I and many others who existed in that particular religious swamp were told, when we didn't agree with religious authorities, that we were in "bad attitudes" -- and when we expressed disagreement we were told that we weren't being "loyal" (to a human being!). When and if we failed to conform to legalistic practice one of the ultimate clubs was to be told that our "conversion" was questionable.

And of course, when all else failed, there was blazing hot hell fire that awaited us, because we couldn't be obedient to God (that is, God as perverted and corrupted by religion). I lived through such religious oppression, thinking that I was the problem. I experienced such mind games at the hands of authorities who, to the best of my knowledge, were sincere. They were of course way off base -- way wrong -- but sincere. Deceived and messed up, and doing their best to mess up everyone to whom they "ministered" and "served." Your pastor may also be completely sincere -- but he is sincerely wrong.

Sad to say, I became a religious authority in the same religious context, and inflicted the same rules, regimens and regulations -- the same atmosphere of fear and shame, of intimidation and bullying. Thinking it was what God wanted, I dished up the same kind of religious propaganda and lies on others. Many of my friends who knew me back then, and who continue to exist within a similar religious world view, believe that I am overstating the reality of what I and many others experienced back then. I believe that they, for a variety of reasons, are unable to deal with the truth of what happened to them and what they themselves participated in -- and thus they live in some degree of denial. I thank God for his gracious deliverance from religion -- for myself, for many people I know, and for many people I serve. I thank God that it seems that you too understand something seems to be horribly wrong in this church you have been attending.

Once again, the sincerity of your pastor and your friends is not the issue. Most of them, perhaps all of them, are doing what they believe to be "right." But by God's grace you seem to know it's not right at all. You mention that some of your friends "worship" the pastor -- when that dynamic is present it can give that human leader carte blanche, and eventually a person given that kind of reverence, whether politically, religiously, on the job or in the family, will become somewhat convinced that they are above and beyond the run of the mill people they ostensibly "serve." Worship of a pastor, however worship may be defined, is a huge danger sign.

Don't put up with this kind of treatment. Many who realize something is very wrong continue to allow such un-Christ-like behavior, in the context of a church, somewhat like a battered spouse will make excuses for his/her spouse who is physically and emotionally abusing them. The abused person will think they can change the abusive party. The abused person will talk about the "good times" when the abuse is not happening. The abused person will make excuses for the perpetrator, justifying him or her.

Women in particular find themselves in a difficult place when adult male spiritual leaders play the submission card. It's often the trump card, used to bring the "rebellious" woman back into line. And, ganging up on a woman when her husband is not present?!?! Religion is all about control.

My question is simple: I challenge religious legalism to please demonstrate and explain how Jesus is all about control. He is the polar opposite! This doesn't mean Jesus is a wimp -- it does mean Jesus gives us choices. He does not chain us to the church pews to make sure we attend every week! May God give you the wisdom and courage to take the steps you need. May his grace and peace be with you. My prayers are with you.

Almost 1 yr on to Hope Movement Split

2009-10-25T03:23:00.000-07:00

It almost now 1yr to the time our Hope Movement was split because of Dr.Joseph and PN action in the Hope Movement. And from that time until there was a number of big changes.
HGI was renamed to HIM now led by Ps Simon, Hope Bangkok Church was split with PN leading one side and Rubina leading the other. Some other churches as well split from Hope and have remained such.

In HIM, we are still refining and changing some of the old Hope issues that have plagued the movement. From all the comments i have read, there are still pockets of Hope elements which are still there. I suppose its always hard to do wholesale changes and no doubt Hope's previous teaching will still have some impact especially those trained in Hope Thailand or have been very closely related to the Hope Church in Bangkok.

In summary issues that needs dealing with

1. BGR issues that have always been very poorly dealt with

2. Pride attitude always assuming we are the best

3. Poor people management skills by the leaders

4. Poor leadership training and selection of leadership based on favourtism rather than by lifestyle

5. Teachings and methods sometimes bodering on cultish behaviour
- Leaders telling members what to do
- People who leave church are often ostracised and cut off

6. Leadership often blaming people using the term "Bad spirit" instead of taking responsiblity.

Whatever 1 yr from now if this things still happen its anyone's guest. But i believe many people who are reading this or left will have stories which can relate to one of these points.

Hopefully HIM can take a bigger role in changing the old Hope Philosophy. Well, Happy Annivesary.

New HIM website and Hope Bangkok

2009-10-12T06:26:00.000-07:00

Yes, it is up and running.. the HIM website. I have placed a link. If you are interested its there.

Just a quick update..Thailand Situation

The thailand situation is still very much... all over. There is still alot of movement and I believe some Thai churches would want to join HIM movement.

PN church is apparently doing pretty well, He was recently invited to i think Africa to speak... mmmmm.. i wonder if the international organisation know what is happening. Unfortunately from what i undertand people in PN church refuse to believe that PN committed adultery even though there is evidence of his infidelity.

Its sad that Hope Bangkok Church people would be so blinded by loyalty that they would not investigate the claim futher.

I am not too sure how HIM will deal with PN and the Hope link. The problem is that we stil use Hope and all those who broke from Hope still retain the name. I can only say it will surely cause more confusion.

I had hope in the future we will have a new name.. maybe call New Hope... to break from the past. I know PN is planning to send people overseas to plant church and you can imagine the confusion it will create.

But.. its my opinion. A name is still a name... as long the truth is out in the open.

I really dont know how to convince the thai bro and sister who just follow blindly.. i suppose only God knows.

The Great debate in BGR

2009-10-05T05:36:00.000-07:00

After reading some of the comments, I do see that many people have experienced the downside of the Relationship system currently employed. I do agree with some of the views that black and white principles need to be taught eg.

1. Pre-Martial Sex
2. Appropriate relationship behaviour

As for the system where if you are interested in a party you tell your shepherd and your shepherd decides for you and also talks to the other party shepherd. I can say with my time at home this method only happens in 1 out of 100. I hardly see this happening, most of the time by the time people tell their shepherd they would have asked the other party.

Unfortunately, because God created us so unique, we can never effectively decide which party is more suited to one another. Thus trying to arrange partnership never really works. I prefer the thrill of the chase, but kept within biblical boundaries. I am sure, girls like to be wooed too.

Rather then make people feel guilty to fall in love, teach guys and girls to enjoy wholesome relationship. Someone once ask me when is the right time to start a relationship, in Hope when you are studying it is a no-no. In fact many times you will face punishment and be forced to step-down from leadership.

Today i hope to bust some myth. So here goes.

I believe many readers will agree that God is perfect and is all-knowing. Therefore if we believe that, then we must believe that when God allow something to happen, he must believe that it is an appropriate timing.

Every human have a hormones clock, where we start to become aware of the opposite "creation", this is often coupled by some physical changes like voice cracking and etc. At school, we have doctors and nurses that do occasional body check. I went through it, they then rate your growth - from facial hair, voice, body structure, etc. And you will notice each people grow differently

Ok here is the thing, if God is never wrong and God in his infinite wisdom decides that Mr A will develop feelings for the opposite ""creation" at 14yrs of age. Then God must have his reasons. The things is each person develops at varying degree at different ages. So when we begin to develop and notice those changes, then we know that that is is time for the next stage in our life. To say that having feelings is wrong then we are doing God a dis-service.

Remember this though - The schooling system was developed by Man not by God, God did not plan the High school, College and University, man did that. To say that a university is wrong to fall in love, is i believe totally inappropriate, did God say that ?

The key is teaching Guys and Gals to "manage" the feelings and work within biblical boundaries. Teach them it is not wrong to have feelings, but teach them how to mange it so that it will not affect their work. Encourage positive interaction, not try and subjugate the people.

The worst thing a church can do is to sweep it all under the carpet and expect every student to be a monk or nun. Seriously this never works. Emotions are very powerful tools and if not handled properly can burn a person badly.

God allow us to mature around 13-18 yrs depending of course on individual, some people never grow-up and may not mature until 30 but... when we first develop such strong emotions, it would have been more constructive to have a peer to guide us how to use the emotions and work within the biblical guidelines.

An example would be when a Father buys his Son a Super-charged Evolution iX, If the Dad do not explain how to drive it and also explain the consequence and set some speed boundaries, of course being a hot-headed teenager there is no guarantee he will not try and drive it at 200KM/hr.

So if you ask me what age ? There is no age, the key is to watch and when you realise someone is coming of age. Guide them along and teach them to handle it better.

Remember, God set everything in His time..

BGR part 2

2009-09-18T02:20:00.001-07:00

I know BGR is a really big topic to most people. As I know from experience out of 10 people who leave Hope during my days 6-7 are because of BGR issues. Because we seem to teach that falling in love is a sin, but we often forget that people have feelings and teenagers from 15-25 are human’s with feelings too.

I know that in Hope we teach that students should not be involved in relationship and we actively discouraged it, but the awful truth is .. how many teenagers have the gift of celibacy ??? Seriously I think many times out of our eagerness we go about it the wrong way. Kids will always be kids, crushes are part and parcel of life.

When I was leading the youth group many years back, I learnt one important lesson. Feelings are uncontrollable. How do you tell a guy not to have crush and stop liking a girl, never seen it happen in my whole time. God make us creatures with feelings, so it is crazy to tell a guy to stop have feelings.

That is why I fully agree with some of the comments, we need to teach positive ways to dating and courtship. I like one of the point out we are not their parents and should not overrule the parents decision.

There was another point that brought to my attention while I was reading the comments. I do not know if anyone has experienced it but I certainly have… there seems to be an unspoken rule that we should only find Christian partners in our Hope Church, it sometimes seem that other churches people are not as good as Hope. The reasoning I always get is they have different vision and better to find from within then outside… but what happens if the guys or girls in the church are not what we are looking for ? And don’t forget there are always more female leaders than guys leaders… so… what happen to those unlucky to not find one by 30 ??

I also have heard and seen people saying that because one couple holds a much higher leadership position therefore they are unequally yoke.. I feel sad for them because my friend was under so much stress. So many people were initially against them, but just for me… who are we to judge who is closer to God ?? Just because you have the title that does not make a person more spiritual, probably maybe just that they joined Hope movement much earlier. Titles are given by Men not by God, title do not make a person holier, look at PN and Dr. Kriengsak, they are a good testimony on the irrelevance of title.

Anyway.. I fully agree that BGR is a very hot topic because in essence there are only 2 things which are crucial to a human need..

1. Love and relationship – family, friends, and a partner and of course God

2. Money and career – to buy a house, food and essentials

And I agree with the comments from John – that we should start giving good positive principles instead of scaring people away from relationship. I know Hope Singapore is changing and some Hope Churches are starting to take the lead in this area.

Hopefully we can start to change from the Hope Movement of Old.. and move away from the dogmatic and controlling system under the Old Hope Movement.

The BGR reviewed

2009-09-17T07:34:00.000-07:00

I was really interested to read about our Hope BGR policies in the the comments section and thought I should share something on my perspective.

I suppose every organisation will have their policies and guideline as to how christian should court each other. Unfortunately, though many Churches have attempted to set guidelines and steps on how to have the ideal courtship, the world is a less than ideal place and to try and put human guidelines of dos and dont's we sometimes add more burden on every courting couples.

On hindsight, we can see the wisdom of God, God did not set any binding methods or his ideal courtship program in the bible . God spoke alot on many other issues but apparently dating or courtship is not in the top most important priority. You must wonder why... maybe God realise that it is almost impossible to have a perfect step or ideal courtship.

I think we should take a leaf out of the bible and provide principles instead of methods to dating. Songs of Solomon actually have great insights on how to find your true love.

So what is most church doing wrong ? Well, we often try to give many do's and donts like I know in Hope we should be chaperon on our first date. Or we should try to go out in group dates rather than single dates, we have to be home by 10pm and please call your shepherd when you are home. Now I have been in Hope 17 years and more .. and have seen countless people leave because people are so disillusioned.

The BGR method in the shepherding structure in reality often do not work. Out of every 100, my estimate is only 1 or 2 couple ever gone through the full courtship process. Now let me share some problems which i have faced and maybe we can identify why this system is not ideal

1. How often if you share who you have an interest in, that your shepherd may also be interested in ? The worst to find out is the person you like, your shepherd is also interested... so what should a shepherd do ??? ... I have seen this episode.. and wont elaborate.. but i am sure we can all imagine...

2. How often this happens - you share your interest with your shepherd and in the end ... almost the whole leadership knows who you like.. and when you sit close to "the" person the whole leadership starts to look over you.

3. You share your interest and your leader prematurely let the cat out of the bag... and the other person know. and things becomes awkward.... and wierd....

4. You share with your shepherd your interest and your leader ask you to pray and tells you he is not the one for you.. granted that some cases the person is a new christian but.... seriously... isn't shepherd row just to guide.. and not to play God ? Even i don't know what is going to happen 1 second from now...

5. How often have you attended a BGR seminar and the summary is what you should "not do" and that we all need to keep waiting. You keep getting examples of people who is willing to wait... often times.. somone in their late 30s.... will come up and share the joy of singlehood...seriously.. i dont if i should be happy for them or feel pity for them...

I am sure many people will have faced similar issues, i have seen it, heard about it and experience it. And all i can say from experience is, we should start to teach people how to find the perfect partner and what to look out for in a good partner.

No relationship will be perfect on the first go, I must admit there is always issues we need to deal, and not every one is mature, but we MUST learn to trust people and not have the "they will sin" attitude... towards every relationship. We need to learn to bless to encourage, in Hope i don't know if it is just me but when i first came to Hope i though relationship is a sin.... only later when i grew up, i learnt that it is not true....

We do need to start trusting people, encourage Godly relationship through reinforcing the positives and also allow relationship to develop naturally... We are not God and therefore should not do "arrange marriage". And tell our sheep who they should and should not see.

Hopefully things in the BGR area will change soon

Purpose of the poll

2009-09-16T07:11:00.000-07:00

From the many post and comments I was initially quite curious to see where the readers are from. So if you are posting a comments, it would also be good to see the demograph.

Its hard to say where the troublespot is or where issues still need to be resolve. I am hoping by conducting the poll.

Hopefully someone from HGI who is reading this blog will be able to resolve some of the issues mention by the people.

HIM Questions answered

2009-09-10T00:47:00.000-07:00

As for those wondering about HIM, I believe Ps Simon is the president for HIM. At present from my understanding, the structure is pretty much the same, which means I believe there will be some inner core eldership which I believe is the directors for the different region.
The new HIM website should reveal more the leadership structure. As for accountability, I am still unsure who we account to. I know there is still a lot of re-structuring to be done. And I know it will take time.
Beyond that, I do think its still too early to tell what the new impetus would be and how things will be done. I am not sure if there is going to be wholesale change.
I read many comments from people, regarding pastor’s still keeping to the old ways of Hope. I really hope that things do change.
Anyway, like I have mentioned before Hope’s biggest failing is its failure to put principles into practical day to day use. That is why even PN and Dr.J themselves are burned out leading them to commit sin and refusing to acknowledge it.

The worst thing that could happen is HIM not learning from the go-go style of the previous Hope Movement. I think if we do our maths properly, Hope style approach to running a church destroys more Christian life then building them up

Some stats to consider – If what Hope Bangkok say is correct in the last 20 yrs assuming that they will have an average of just 100 converts every week. That would mean there should be 104000 new Christians entering the Kingdom of God,

I wonder what is the real retention rate, it is sad to think that for every 100 people saved maybe only 3 or 5 will make the distance

The end purpose - Would HIM or Hope change ?

2009-09-05T22:00:00.000-07:00

Just to answer a query, I suppose this blog was designed so that people will know what has happened to Hope and what PN and Dr Joseph did.

Though there have been a major split , everything takes time to change I suppose

Would the leaders respond to this blog, well, i suppose my main aim is not to force a change, but provide an avenue for discussion, and possible change. Information is power and the more people know and understand the issue, the easier it is for change.

You know when people know that they are being watched and policies are being scrutinized, I am sure one day things will change. The problem with Hope Bangkok is no one was watching them and holding them accountable.

So I suppose, as long as this blog is running, people from all over HIM and Hope have a common place to discuss issues.

And i am sure leaders will be reading this site..

A relook at shepherding

2009-09-03T07:22:00.000-07:00

Been thinking about this for awhile, but i think its important to redfine or re-look at our shepherding understanding. Personally i do believe having a mentoring program in Church is a good thing and one when done correctly can encourage the younger christians to grow.

What is the role of a shepherd ?

I do believe as a shepherd one's role is to provide guidance to the person they are mentoring. The important thing is to make sure we do not dictate or tell them what to do.. We are not God and are not suppose to be God over our sheep's life. The aim is to give guidance and advice and allow the sheep to make their own decision.

I have shepherd i know, that actually dictate who and what the sheep should do, where they should study and even who they should marry. That is very dangerous because then we are assuming the role of God.

The greatest problem of a shepherd and leaders

One issue that has been a constant of pain is this, sometimes members tell their shepherd some personal issue in confidence and then in the process, suddenly they found out the whole leadership knows about their issue.

We teach in Hope that if we talk about people without the person's approval then its gossip, but i tell you if a leader talks about a member without the member's knowledge its also gossip. The worst thing i have encountered is when leaders are found out, their excuse is so that we can help the person and learn. I think this is totally wrong, because principle cannot change, if you want to discuss about a member's issue make sure you let the member's know. Personally as a shepherd, if my sheep tell me something in confidence I will not let it out, unless i cannot handle then i would actually ask the sheep's permission or ask them to bring the case up.

I never like telling people's issue upwards without the presence of the person i am discussing because you can either misquote or misunderstood the issue and in the end make a mountain our of a molehill.

Therefore this saying that - every secret has to go upwards is wrong if - the person you are talking about, never knew or is not informed. I tend to dislike it when i attend leader's meeting and leader's discuss personal issues of people in their group. To me i consider it gossip, because the person do not know that this issue has become an open secret.

As leaders we need to uphold the standards we ourselves expect of others. To me I do agree that pastor's should know things happening in church and "if" it relates to the church but alot of times its people's personal struggle so unless permission is first sought before passing on the message, don't just assume pastors have the right to know at the expense of your own personal integrity.

Make sure that when discussing about issues in leadership meeting, no names are used and if a situation becomes too big just ask the person to speak to someone more mature and then pass it on upwards properly.

How to treat the person you are mentoring

Always treat the person you are mentoring with respect and understand that just because they may be our mentee, it does not automatically means they are not intelligent. we somehow have this assumption that all sheep are dumb, its just a paraphase, in reality not everybody would be as dumb as a sheep.

Sometimes we get this false precept that just because they are our mentee, they are not as smart as the leaders, but the problem is that as pointed out by some people, leaders sometimes are raised up very fast, resulting in people with the title but not necessary the experience nor skill to handle issues. I have met many people who i have mentored, who are well-adjusted, intelligent and smart people. They maybe new to the christian faith and lack the knowledge and that is sometimes about it.

Therefore always treat people with respect and in turn your mentee will respect you as a mentor.

Is Dr Kreingsak a Politician with a difference ???

2009-09-02T08:05:00.000-07:00

I have been following some of the developments in the Thai Politics and our so-called founder of Hope of God. Though there are people still in awe of him and how he supposedly spell a new generation of good politicians in Thailand that can make a change.

No doubt I must admit Dr Kriengsak Chareonwongsak is a highly intelligent person who have written more articles I can remember, but to me he is just a typically politicians. By that i mean, I have come to some conclusions that most if not all politicians in Thailand are only able to have power simply because some corners have to be bent. Whatever they maybe yellow or red supporters, the truth is unless you are willing to bend some rules, there is absolutely no way you can be a politican.

For one thing, I know Kriengsak is the same. A typical politician who try to portray himself as a great alternative. Why do i say that :

1. He was willing to lie about his association with Hope even under oath when queried in the courts
2. He moved people in Hope to his electorate to help him gain votes even though it is illegal to do so.
3. He used church money to fund his campaign even though it was illegal
4. He got church people to help him got to temple to perform Buddhist rite

A man driven by the passion to see thailand at the cost of his moral conviction with God and total disregard for his family and the people who had to sin in order to help him.

Would Dr kriengsak be able to make a difference in thailand, i have no doubt that he has the ability and I have no doubt that he can possible use some of his solutions to build thailand. But for me its not the end that is important, but the journey we take to reach our destination, would he be able to shine God's name in a Buddisht Thailand ? I doubt it though.

Yes he may win the battle for Thailand but in the process he would have lost the war to bring people in Thailand closer to God.

His sory is a good reminder to everyone that as we pursue the path that we believe God called us, be it in the marketplace, in Education, in Science, Media, or politics. Never allow your goals to be your God, and in the process forget why you were there in the first place.

Indeed if we do aim to shine for Jesus in the workplace, lets not forget that our final destination is our heavenly home.

Amen.

Clarification on HGI and HIM as well as PS PN and Hope

2009-09-02T02:51:00.000-07:00

It does seem that many people are still confused about the affiliation of the different churches and movement that came about due to the split. This is because Hope used to have many minor websites and links which are still not updated, even some of the Hope Churches website still show affiliation to Hope Movement under HGI which is entirely not true. So here is the breakdown

In thailand there are mainly 4 big split

1. Hope of God Bangkok - Under PN
- Operates a number of websites :
a) www.welovepn.net,
b) www.wehopefamily.net
c) wehopefamily.blogspot.com

In these websites PN still claims to be HGI president and the ultimate authority

2. Hope of Bangkok - Under Ps Nimit ( Rubina )

a) http://www.hope.or.th/

3. Neutral Party - Churches who broke all affiliation ( Not many )

4. Hope of God Churches ( Under HIM )

-= Includes Hope Chiangmai, and a couple of other Churches in Thailand and in Bangkok

Hope Churches internationally : ALL the Hope Churches internationally all decide to follow Ps Simon to form HIM, no church from my knowledge was willing to follow PN and that include Hope Singapore

We call ourselves Hope International Ministries
- Unfortunately at this moment we still do not have a main website but i believe is in the midst of being set-up

Hope of Nation is a name we previously registered long time ago.. but have not used for a long time. But is not a new movement.

Essentials of Church - Part 3

2009-08-29T18:23:00.000-07:00

After reading some of the comments from brothers and sisters, I agree that some things do need to change. Hope was definitely work based by nature, it comes as no surprise because we take our model and the church character from our Founder - Dr Kreingsak and Ps. Joseph Srithawang, who advocates a work based model of spirituality. In fact work ethics is very much the basis of promotion in Hope of God church in Bangkok. But as we all can see, in the end they themselves got burned out and fell from God. This is a clear proof that this style of church growth never works. Some of the comments posted in previous Articles were great comments and indeed one reason Kriengsak had to stepped down because he offended many christians by the things he said and did.

In fact if indeed our salvation rate is as high as we always claimed, then in theory our church would have grown leaps and bounds but after 20 + years... all our churchs previously HGI and Bangkok did not show much growth in fact our turnover rate is almost 80% or more. Many of our church struggle to hit 500 people and only Hope Singapore have broken the 1000 people barrier. When i looked at stats from other growing churches around the world many have very high retention rate, and after looking into their method I have come to one conclusion we are doing it all wrong.

We are just so conscious about numbers and like one reader pointed out so into appointing leaders we totally disregard if they are well-equipped. In fact, I have seen leaders went up to the stage to preach even though he was a pretty young christians and in fact after he preached some visiting christians even asked me if he knew what he was saying. I had to keep quiet, apparently the pastor's way of selecting leaders is as long as you obey and submit to him and listen to him, you will be gurranteed a top leadership role regardless of annointing. In fact, the group under him never grow and the pastor have to keep taking people from other group to prop up his group at the expense of the other leaders because he was the pastor's fav.

So even though he was a UL in numbers, the numbers were mainly transferred people who went to his group. So how is that called annointing ?? I have heard him preach a number of times sometimes i don't even know what he was saying. I really think people need to be better trained and equipped. Our Hope theory is always OJT, throw them onto the pulpit and learn as you go. Maybe that is why many times we struggle.

In the church movement run by PN and Dr Kriengsak, we pushed people to invite friends and follow-up, we have stats to make sure we do, we have unit that get people to go to do street evangelism, we create millions of events to do outreach in the hope of getting people to church, because its always been a numbers game in Hope. We have Best of the Best to highlight the importance of numbers

So what have i learned from other growing churches...

1. Make sunday service applicable

- We should start to make Sunday sermons more applicable. Expository teaching verse by verse is good, but i find it more for mature christian's who like to do some meaty teachings. Many times i find my non-christian friends or even some christian fall asleep during preaching session. Because many times the sermon is just not applicable. I empathize with the pastors because they have to follow the Hope Movement law in making sure the teaching is verse by verse and book by book. It is seriously very restrictive, I know because i have been there and done that. After you been in Hope long enough, its always the same principles - Be obedient, be humble, Be kind, Trust God,..... you get my drift.
- I do think to make church more relevant, make teachings that can be applied or teachings that build people up because there is a wider spectrum of people in church therefore it would be better, that we can preach from the lowest common denominator and do bible study when its a special church camp.

Some good preachers and their Style

1. Ps Wayne Coderio - I believe PS Jeff also like this preacher
2. Joel Osten from Lakewood
3. Ps Kong Hee from CHC
4. Brian Houston from Hillsongs
5. Joyce Meyers
6. TD Jakes
7. Ps Rick Warren
8. Ps Bill Hybel
9. Ps Ashely Evans

To name but a few

2. Meet people's needs and treat people like people

I think this is crucially what is missing in Hope, we get so revved up in trying to get people invovled in church, sometimes we just overlook people's issue and needs. How many times we see leaders assumption that when christians are not serving because they are not spiritual ? Yet we overlook some stuggles they may face, maybe they have family issues, problems at studies or relationship issues. Isn't church suppose to be helping people ? Sometimes i feel in Hope Movement, people are just treated as workers and employees, expandable and disposable.

I do not think this is what church is supposed to be. My pastor keep stressing about church planting even though our church was still small. What was the whole purpose, to tell the world we can have Church everywhere ? To win best of the best ? We just keep sending people out without regards if they are ready and if our church could cope.

Guess what, many who went became burnt out because our church have no support structure, no way to help them. Many came back disillusioned and burnt out. Yet when they came back broken, our church never learnt from their mistake but even increased the goal of church planting.

To me, Church planting is importnant, but not at the expense of people's life. Unless the church is ready and is equipped to provide support don't play with people's life. Because ultimately if you are the shepherd and kill your flock you will be help accountable by God.

So when i say meet people's need what do i propose

1. Have a good tuition service to help poorer students
2. Have a ministry to help new graduates find jobs or write resume
3. Have a good counselling service
4. Create good family atmosphere and children church

Create an avenue of help for all level of church - from students, to single adults, to family, to senior group.

I heard a saying from a pastor, If people's needs are met then the church needs will be met too. Because people can serve without any worries.

Essential Church (Part 2)

2009-08-25T07:06:00.000-07:00

Firstly i would like to thank the people for the comments. Yes I agree with some of the observations. It is true to say that in the previous Hope movement under PN and Dr. Kriengsak. There was only one role that is to become a church planter and go out to fulfill the 1 million churches by 2015 vision. When this whole thing blew up, i began to question the reasons for such a mind blowing goal whatever it was more for God or for PN and Dr.J's own personal ambition. But in my 17 years, i have seen enough friends leave Hope movement because they were burnt out or disappointed. The worst thing in the previous Hope movement, people stopped becoming friends but treat each other like colleagues. If you are serving in the team, then you get all the adoration and so-called friendships but if you are tired or down and out, you will be left at the side and suddenly you realise your so-called friends just have no time for you.

I must admit Hope have some good points, and the reason i stayed because I have never let its issues affect me. To highlight another essentials which i have always believed.

3. Allow your people to be who God wants them to be.

- I agree that PN and the previous seems only to believe that we should be Church planters and missionaries and be in the pastoral capacity. But the truth of the principle that applies in the church context should also apply on an individual basis.
- Meaning to say not everyone is a Pastor or called to be in the pastoral ministry. Some are called to the marketplace as a businessmen and entrpreneur, some are called to do social work, some find joy in spreading the gospel through music.
- We have the 5 fold ministry but if you notice, our church have never been able to raise up the 5-fold only mainly, teachers and pastors.

What i think we should keep

1. I believe shepherding system is a good system but maybe do with some modification
2. Teach the essentials - QT, Character change, Sharing the gospel.

But beyond that allow our people to explore their calling. never force people to do things. Keep Christian life simple. All God wants is to grow in him - spend time in QT, Share the Gospel and change our life and be a good testimony.

In my walk in Hope one of the worst thing i ever heard a non-christian say to me is that they did not want to become christian because they saw how we serve - they actually asked me when I become a christian does it mean i have to attend all this meetings and I do not want to become christian and be so busy and so tired like so and so...... actually in Hope many times we end being the Martha instead of Mary ... we work and work till the point we sometimes even miss God.

.... to be continued.

Essentials to church

2009-08-23T07:29:00.001-07:00

After having read some comments for improvements in the future, I think it can all sum up in one word. Whatever we do, we must always remember human be it charismatic leaders to the humble followers are all imperfect creatures. Many times our intention starts out good but things gets distorted or changed along the way. Just like George Orwell's Animal farm, he poignantly portrayed the evil in power and the imperfection of any system and the need for accountability

I have yet to met a men that has not succumb to temptations given the right opportunity, moment and circumstances. Like all the pastors who fell because of adultery or succumb to the desire of wealth or who in a moment of weakness who not able to do the right thing. And it is because of frailty that we need a good counter check and balance, such that leaders cannot have absolute power, no leaders should be able to use only one portion of the bible to tell members to submit and obey regardless of their life.

My proposal ( Part 1 )

Stronger and more independent board

1. The Board of directors in the Church should always include at least 1 senior pastor not in the Local church. AOG churches often have a non-executive director to provide advise and counsel in regards to Financial and also act as a Pastor's spiritual mentor. It is ridiculous to say that Head pastor need no spiritual shepherd, because Men is sinful and we need good counsel regardless of status. That was Dr Kriengsak and PN's downfall they had no one they need to account to.

2. The board's role is mainly administrative, I believe that as long as the head pastor is not making decisions that is immoral nor againstg the bible, we should allow him or her to lead. BUT, subject to their life example - meaning if a pastor is found to commit adultery, or is unable to lead by example as a good husband he must dutifully step down. The key issue is about general moral codes - honesty, integrity, righteousness

3. The head pastor is the lead pastor but he is also accountable to all the other pastors, and have to make sure that this check and balance works

Build on our strength

I think the next thing we need to admit is that we can never be the best at every thing. In hope, i often encounter this elitist teaching that we are the best in everything in worship, in teaching, in structures. And we try to do everything. But after being in Hope for 17 years now, I have come to realise that this is impossible. There will never be a church that can do everything. The local church is like a part of the body of the universal church. Every church functions differently and the truth is most church takes after the giftings of the leaders.

I often hear previously that our Bangkok worship team is better then Hillsongs, but the truth is Praise and worship is never our strong suite. We cannot compare with Hillsongs because this what God gave them as a church. In turn, Hope was good at pioneering church and there are not many church in this world who can do what we do. Some church are good at social work and some good at outreaching in the marketplace. The point i am trying to make is that we need to find our strength and build on it. And those area we are weak, we can send people to learn from other churches. Eg. if Hillsongs are holding a Worship conference we can participate and learn instead of trying to redo the wheel

The reason we can never get a great worship team because our structure in Hope will never be able to accmodate a strong team why ? Well in a small to a medium hope church, we have meetings that are more than a 10,000 people church. A typical leader will in a week besides working 8-5. Will have

1. Shepherding with his/her sheep
2. Be shepherded
3. Have CG meeting
4. Depending on your level - Unit meeting, Sub-district, District meeting, SDMM, JDMM
5. WFL class on sunday
6. Prayer meeting
7. Outreach events
8. Weekly Care Group
9. Follow-up
10. Participation in special church level events
- Camp
- Church Anniversary
- Easter
- Christmas
11. Leader's retreat

Then besides all this regular meeting and training session we try to create ministry for people to be involve like worship ministry, admin, spirtual growth department, development ministry.
Well you get my drift, If you are a working adult how could you possibly fit all this events.
I have actually done a calender once.. and seriously once you reach UL level you basically will have no time for friends, family or anything not related to ministry.

So my proposal would be to focus on our strength, and the strength of the pastor leading the church. No 2 pastors are alike therefore we may come from the same factory but the type of products will be definitely be different.

I am happy to plant churches, but if a Pastor is gifted in music, he can use music to plant churches. The ending point is the same only the method is different. Cut out too many meetings and streamline events.

That is my first 2 proposal...

Improvements for HGI and HIM

2009-08-23T07:26:00.001-07:00

Another comments for improvements....

Watcher said...: Hi Eagle Eye,

I also used to come from Hope Church. Now, like Orel and Anonymous, I am in another church. I am now in a presbyterian church. It is very different from Hope Church but it also have a good church vision and is biblicalas well.

Though as pointed out by Anonymous that you are not in the leadership of HIM, what you have done, such as posting this blog and paving the way for various opinions to be sounded, is a courageous thing to do; and most important of all, it challenges the notion which I believe is pervasive in the Hope Church I use to come from and possibly other Hope churches as well: Leaders knows best and members must consult their leaders such that whatever you say is in line with the "official stand" of the church. I am not against seeking counsel from Leaders, or that leaders are not to be trusted. We must trust leaders whom God has ordained to be our overseers. But when leaders sin and go against the Word of God in their lives and governorship, we who are members and other leaders alike must speak up the truth in love. In the Hope Church I used to come from, we usually understand "Better is open rebuke than hidden love" to mean that leaders must correct their sheeps when they stray. This notion is twisted to mean that in most conflicts, the sheeps are usually the immature ones and definitely in the wrong, and the leaders must correct them. But seldom, and I seriously mean seldom, have I heard that sheeps can also seek to speak the truth in love to their leaders when their leaders are in the wrong. Simply put, Eagle Eye, you have discarded the faulty notion of rank and status that I believe you have experienced in Hope, like I did in the past. That is why I believe you dared to speak up, because you know the truth and you want to speak the truth. I am encouraged by that. By your actions, you have refuted the false notion (which i encountered in my ex-Hope church) that only being leaders (which I specifically mean CLs, shepherds, UL, SDL, etc)can you make a difference as Christian and be most useful in the kingdom of God. You have effectively demonstrated that God can speak through any members, regardless of "rank and status", of the church. You have shown that we are all under equal footing in the church because of Christ. THere is no hierarchy, no greek nor jew, no slave nor free, nomale or female, but we are all baptised into one body by the Spirit. We are all sinners justified before God through Christ.

Cheers,
Watcher; August 22, 2009 12:18 AM
Watcher said...: Hi all,

Besides being encouraged by eagle_eye's initiative, I like to say that the various false notions I encountered in the Hope Church may not be true for all Hope Churches. But what i have stated as false notions bears similarities to what I have heard from other brothers as well. It is because of my doctrinal convictions (it was getting more Calvinistic and Reformed in theology), and what I have personally deem as doctrinally unsound teachings & practices in the Hope Church I came from, that finally compelled me to leave Hope for a more grounded church.

Some of these unsound teachings practices, I can only list them briefly in the following which I believe are fundamental issues that needs to be changed before reaal reform can happen in Hope churches:

1) The extremely tight shepherding system. This teaching, while having good intentions to guide believers in growth and fellowship, has actually place an additional human mediator between Christians and God when Christ is already the Mediator between christians and God. It is like the Roman Catholic system, in which you need a human priest to interced between the christians and God. THis system, including the shepherding system, seeks to destroy the sufficiency of Christ mediation and the Spirit's ability to guide believers. Yes, we need counsel from fellow believers, particularly mature ones, but it must not be to the extent that we cause believers to over-rely on man or treat our human shepherds as if they are the intercessors between us and God. In Hope, I always use to hear, "Have you sought your shepherd's or leaders advice?" I seldom hear,"Have you seek God about this matter? What does Scripture say about this issue.? I also seldom hear,"Have you asked other brothers and sisters about this issue?" Notice that by default, a system is created in which counsel through the officially assigned leaders and shepherds have trumped the supremacy of Scripture and wise counsel from other brothers and sisters. It is like the "Magisterium" of the catholic church, in which the church's interpretation and tradition is held to be more supreme that Scripture alone. To make my point clear, I once heard a leader teaching in a conference about the shepherding system, that if you do not feel forgiven because of sin, you may want to confess your sin to your shepherd to feel more forgiven. Yes, there is occasion to confess our sins to another, as stated in James 5. But the real life example I stated seem to suggest that human shepherds have power to forgive sins. Doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Christ sacrifice on the cross and also deny Christ's role as the only MEdiator between Christians and God? Yes, God ordains shepherds over us, and we must learn to obey and submit to them. We must have close fellowship, but artificially assiging human shepherds over christans (i.e. your own personal shepherd, follow-upper) that is not based on mutual trust, willingness and true friendship but compulsory enforcement due to church regulation, will most prob end up in disillusionment, hurt and damage. In fact, quite many christian leaders and evangelical scholars have spoken up against the unbiblical "shepherding system" (by which I mean a permanent artificially assigned human mentor to each christian as mediator between him and God. I do not mean the shepherding role of the elders and leaders in taking care of the flock). For a period of time this teaching flourished in Charismatic churches in the United States in the 1970s to 1980s known as the "Shepherding movement" but has died down since. The Reformers of the sixteenth century set Christians free from the unbiblical priest-as-mediators system. Let us not go back to that bondage again.; August 22, 2009 2:00 AM
Watcher said...: Continued from earlier post:

2) The church should not be run like a corporation. The church is the body of Christ. But Hope was run like a corporation, in which Kriengsak acted like a CEO, albeit in a autocratic way. Members are told to put in maximum inputs for optimum outcomes, much like trying to gain profits. If you can't bring in the profits, you have to be left behind and possibly "sacked". Committment meant that you follow whole-heatedly the "company" line, and even if you are creative and speak the truth and do the truth in a right way, as long as it goes against the official "company" line, you have to be sidelined. From the what I experienced in Hope, your standing before God is based on how much work is done from you, how much you conform, basically how committed you are to "church ministry" Yes, we must be obedient to Christ and His Word and be zealous, but true committment should spring from a grateful heart in response to God's gracious work in justifying you in Christ for salvation. And this committment should be shown not only in church ministry, but also in our workplace, in our secular vocations, families,etc. Committment must not be done to make ourselves justified before God. That is why so many ppl in Hope got burned out: They are so burdened, thinking that God is only satisfied with us when we do the most work and be very committed in church. This mindset is no different from the infamous Judaizers who tried to hoodwink the galatian church to fulfill the Mosaic law to be justified before God. What's the end result? As pointed out by eagle eye, it is neglect in their jobs, family life, thinking that serving God means only church ministry. This mindset must be changed. As one brother wisely counselled to me, if I claim to want to serve God fully in Church ministry, yet neglect the care of my family (i.e. to serve them), I am a hypocrite.

3) Exclusivism. AS rightly pointed by eagle eye, we have witnessed the exclusive mindset that pervades hope churches. I have heard before in my ex-Hope Church that Hope teaches the whole bible while other churches teaches only parts of the truth. Sad to say, this is not true and it is such a prideful statement. It was the Reformers of the sixteenth century that declared that the WHOLE bible is the supreme authority in the church. Kriengsak might have been a towering intellect, a prolific writer and charismatic leader, but origen, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, were also towering intellects, prolific writers and charismatic leaders. The christian church did not start with Kriengsak, but was founded by Christ 2000 years ago and have lived on to this day. There have been many great movements in Church history, of which Hope is only one of them. Simply put, we must cast aside excluscivism and realise there is a rich diversity in the body of Christ. HIM can learn from and should interact with other churches. There are churches which have equally good vision, if not better vision than Hopes. If anyone from Hope says,"No. How could other Churchs have better vision or is better than Hope?" , this is precisely the exclusivism Hope must throw away.; August 22, 2009 2:02 AM
Watcher said...: Continued from previous post:

4) Fight back the worship of personalities. In the Hope church I came from, many ppl have adored Kriengsak, PN, and human leaders in our church who have fantastic talents, charisma, high rank. We've often spoke about the miraclulous life of Kriengsak,the signs and wonders surrounding him and how it impacted the early growth of the church. We honoured Kreingsak and PN as if they were God. But yet we were blind to the numerous false practices which they incorporated. While in Hope, the Word of God has high authority, but Kriengsak's interpretation of the Word, his teachings, inclusive of teachings of our local church leaders was viewed as THE WORD OF GOD. Yes, we must listen to preachers, even though they may make mistakes in their interpretation, when they faithfully interpret Scripture. But when man's words is the supreme authority rather than Scriptur, disaster would follow. As I mentioned earlier, the Roman Catholic church "Magisterium" is one such example. Many ppl worshipped Kriengsak and PN. We adored our human leaders to the extent that we worshipped them as if they were Christ Himself. Our eyes were fixed on man, our leaders. Peter was wise when he prevented Cornelius from bowing to him, as they were both were humans. Paul and Barnabas protested when the greek crowds worshipped them as if they were greek gods. Only Christ deserve our worship!

The above are just my bried observation of what I experience in Hope and what i've heard from fellow brothers and sisters in Hope. hopefully, my comments could contribute in a small measure to future improvements in Hope.

Regards,
Watcher

Comments for improvement in HGI and HIM

2009-08-23T07:23:00.000-07:00

I have added some comments which I will tag so that it can be found next time......; Thanks for posting your views (including the suggestions for improvement) Eagle_Eye.

Since leaving Hope I have attended 2 wonderful churches in other denominations. There is no other church movement however with a vision such as Hope's and which mobilises its membership as effectively as Hope does.

The vision given to DJ is a vision from heaven - a church of tens of thousands in Bangkok would not have existed otherwise. During my time with Hope we sincerely believed it is possible to change the world right side up. Good to see HIM holding on to the vision and doubtless they will seek to add to it with God's grace.

The movement is now an "older dog". While the "old tricks" from heaven should be retained and practised there will certainly be "new tricks" the Lord is looking to impart.

Exciting times lie ahead.; August 21, 2009 10:00 AM
Anonymous said...: Very well said, Eagle_eye. The comparisons between HIM and HGI will inevitably come out as you post all these blogs and forums. They are coming out for a very good reason. People do see things that are wrong and want change. In the past, they could not speak out, now they can. People speak out because mostly, the movement is dear to them. As many have said, this movement was founded on very good principles and foundations. Even to those like myself who have left it, it is still very dear and I would love to see changes that would bring it much closer to what is right and biblical and not according to what man wants.

The forum where members can put in their opinions is a very good idea at this stage as the leaders may not be aware of all the wrong practices currently still in HIM. My experience with Hope in the past is that there are Hope churches in the international scene that are very close to Hope Bangkok practices and there are also those that are Hope but do not follow these practises, so the practise of ostracising people who leave Hope may only be carried out by a few Hope churches that are currently in HIM but it is still something that needs to be stamped out if HIM really wants to change from the past.

Another practise that I have seen time and time again is how pastors who step down and leave the movement are being treated. They step down mainly for 2 reasons - firstly, it is burn out. Secondly, they disagree with the Hope practises and want to start their own church.

In both cases, these pastors are ostracised. In the second case, they are worse than ostracised. I have seen a pastor who have left the movement to start another church being ex-communicated, false accusations being brought against that pastor and the deliberate attempt of trying to discredit his reputation. THAT IS MOST UNCHRISTIAN and double standard since on the other hand, Hope welcomes pastors together with their congregation who have left other denominations with open arms. The attempt seems to be to break that pastor so that he cannot carry on pastoring after he has left the movement. Hope will always replace that pastor anyway and restart that church.

For the pastors who leave because of burnout and cannot carry on pastoring anymore, I have seen them leaving with a lot of hurts and disillusionment, they have no job and income, they have no career left and they have families to feed, yet they are left alone with no help and care and no moral and spiritual support whatsoever. It is very sad and unchristian. Clearly, Hope has forgotten about the Good Samaritan parable.

Eagle_eye, I bring this up now because of this post hoping that something can be done in HIM in the future about all these things and I do believe that past wrongs need to be corrected. I know you are not in the HIM leadership but as you say, you may be able to speak with them and bring about change.

Thanks for reading this post.

Scars of the past - HIM and the old HGI under Ps PN

2009-08-21T02:11:00.000-07:00

I do believe there is still some confusion back in Bangkok, where information have been slow in moving. As the old Hope Movement have been split into different groups, because PN still considers himself a HGI president, there is still some people who may be unsure about the international scene especially since people in thailand normally uses Thai language to communicate and many may not know english. I hope that I can put out a Thai version soon.

Anyway, I read with interest about comparison of HIM vs HGI churches. I do understand about the issus regarding ex-member leaving church under previous Hope Movement and have raised this issue about the double standard our church practice where when other church people join us, we are ok while those who leave hope are termed rebellious. Personally, I have always believed this practice to be unchristian like because there might be some reasons beyond personal issues and people should never be ostracised because of that. In fact, I keep in touch with a lot of people who have left hope, you could say we have a sort-of unofficial Hope Alumni club, but for most people i speak to they are doing well in other churches.

The top 3 reasons i know most people leave is BGR issues, burned out due to the heavy committment and unable to work with the leaders due to style difference. Under HGI with Dr Dan or PN, our style was more auotcratic and your "promotion" was more often based on 2 criteria - your total obedience to the leaders and willingness to commit your life to the church ministry, rather than your life walk with God. That is why many leaders burned out

I do believe though HIM will be different from HGI, as now we have our chance to forge our own identity. i do think many thing that Hope previously did was because of our founder, who have backslidden but was still running the Church like a CEO with PN as the face of Hope, and many of their decisions were based on secular principles but using Chrsitian analogy. Like when PN describe the breakaway as that of children deciding to split from their parents, this sounds good but in essence not scriptural because, God is suppose to be the head. Hope in itself is not the parents. Therefore Churches like HIM that split from PN is not splitting from a Parent and children relationship but probably that of siblings. Yes, we did come from the same Movement but when one part sins against God, then it would be wrong to condone such sin. Christ should always be the head, we follow Christ not PN.

I do believe also that HIM is trying to make an effort to review their policies, especially since previously every input owas from PN and Dr.Dan. I must admit in Thailand, Hope may be the preeminent church, maybe that is why it was always a "Them" vs "Us" mentality and that is why we keep telling our members we are the best and seldom if never invite international speakers. I know from Ps Simon blog that HIM intend to work more closely with ither churches and be involve in the Christian community.

But just like a cancer growth, I must say it would take some time to clean the cancer cells and wrong teachings that were past down from PN and Dr.Dan. Everything do take time, because 20yrs of scar and imprint cannot be erased overnight.

I do think we first need to tackle the crucial issue of finance, Church direction and settting our own identity. We will take what is good and throw away the bad. I am happy about the topic in the 1st Global conference called revisiting our values. I think now it is a good opportunity for members to help create our new identity. We all can play apart.

Maybe I will ask them to create a forum where members can put in their opinions. One good thing about Hope though, was that the principles and foundations created were really good and we should keep. The one big failure we have in Hope is putting the principles into practice and making it practical.

For example - we are always taught to love God. but in Hope we were never thought how, our assumption was that to show we love God we have to serve and be involved by attending all meetings and do follow-up and shepherding.

Another weakness to rectify is also learning to link all the other principles for example - like what the article mentioned previously. People always neglect their job and perform badly because they only care about church work, some i know even do their shepehrding or quarterly plan during work hours, even though we are suppose to be paid by the company.

Let's hope things will turn out better , scars and wounds takes time to heal, and I think for those in Hope, we need to put in our hands to reshape our future.

An article about Dr Kriengsak and hope

2009-08-17T18:37:00.000-07:00

An article I found about Hope of God Church Bangkok. It was written be a person who was previously involved from the beginning with Hope Bangkok and a third party reflection. It really will answer alot of questions about Hope and the way they function.

This article gave me a great insight to the stories i previously heard 10 years ago about Kriengsak, about allegation of him, the reason for his excomminication of his seond hand man, strories that were only heard from Hope point of view. But never from a thrid party perspective.

This is an excellent article because it has all the bibliography and reference. I really hope we can all learn the lesson from this

http://www.thaicrc.com/gsdl/collect/MIS/index/assoc/D4888.dir/4888.pdf

Summary

The Hope of Bangkok is the fastest growing church in Thai Protestant church history, beginning in 1981 with 17 people, and has grown to an estimated 40,000 members today. Not only is the Hope of Bangkok itself growing, but many other churches have benefited from former Hope of Bangkok members transferring their membership to mainline churches in Bangkok and the rest of Thailand.

The Hope of Bangkok has also experienced conflict with other churches because of its
rapid growth and its policy of drawing members from other churches to join it. Its
membership in the Evangelical Fellowship of Thailand was suspended in 1987 and
has not yet been reinstated.

The Hope of Bangkok is distinctive in that it began with a clear vision to plant to church in every Amphur district of Thailand. It expects a high level of commitment from its members who are expected to attend Sunday services, small group meetings, do follow up of new believers as well as show self discipline in memorizing Bible verses. A corporate structure is used to govern the church and the church services are a blend of Charismatic style worship mixed with expository sermons from the Bible. A clear system of follow up is used to contact people who attend services and meetings of the church.

The Hope of Bangkok Church has many lessons to teach the Thai church in general and its methods and policies need to be examined in the light of scripture to determine how the Christian church can improve its rate of growth and reach more Thai people for Christ.

Table of Contents

Table of Contents...........................................................................................................1
Introduction...................................................................................................................3
1 History....................................................................................................................3
1.1 Dr Kriengsak Charoenwongsak- Personal Background and Conversion ......3
1.2 The Birth of “The Hope of Bangkok Church”..............................................4
1.3 Expansion and Growth...................................................................................5
1.4 Problems ........................................................................................................8
2 A Personal Experience.........................................................................................11
3 Distinctives of the Hope of Bangkok...................................................................12
3.1 Clear Vision .................................................................................................12
3.2 Corporate Organisation................................................................................12
3.3 A Unique Way of Conducting Church Services ..........................................14
3.4 Follow up .....................................................................................................14
3.5 High level of commitment ...........................................................................15
4 Dr Kriengsak Today.............................................................................................16
5 Lessons for the Thai Church................................................................................17
5.1 Strong National leadership...........................................................................17
5.2 Accountability of church members..............................................................17
5.3 Commitment among the membership..........................................................18
5.4 Accountability of leadership........................................................................18
6 Conclusion ...........................................................................................................19
Bibliography ................................................................................................................20

Introduction

The Hope of Bangkok is the fastest growing church in Thai Protestant church history, beginning in 1981 with 17 people, about half of them foreign missionaries. Today the church is estimated to number over 40,000 members and still seems to be growing at a rapid rate. Not only is the Hope of Bangkok itself growing, but many other churches have benefited from former Hope of Bangkok members transferring their membership to mainline churches in Bangkok and the rest of Thailand. It cannot be denied that the Hope of Bangkok has had a tremendous impact on the Christian church in Thailand. This report seeks to explore some of the reasons for the rapid growth of the Hope of Bangkok Church, and the lessons that we can learn from both its rapid growth and some of the problems that it has experienced during its 23 year history.

1 History

1.1 Dr Kriengsak Charoenwongsak- Personal Background and Conversion

Dr Kriengsak was the eldest of five children in a Chinese family in Bangkok. He had a father who worked very hard to establish the family business and was seldom at home. Dr Kriengsak himself grew up with an attitude to doing everything well and working very hard. His early life was also characterised by loneliness because his parents had to work very hard and he was sometimes not able to relate well to his school friends. He went to a prestigious secondary school but instead of involving himself in sports and other leisure activities he went regularly to an orphanage to play with the children and also to help the inmates in a blind institution. He would also organise teams to go to remote rural areas in the summer vacations to build schools. At
age of 16 in 1972 he was offered a scholarship to study for a year in an American high
school in Wisconsin USA, and this was his first exposure to Western society. In November 1973, Kriengsak arrived in Melbourne, Australia and studied economics and political science at Monash University. During this time he developed a friendship with a Singaporean student who was a Christian. He was impressed with the intellect of his fellow student and through his witness eventually became a Christian. After his conversion he became very disciplined in Bible study, prayer life and witnessing to his friends. He became involved in a conservative evangelical
church and also in the Asian Fellowship on the campus. Sometime later he had an experience of being baptised by the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. Dissatisfied with the conservative Church he began to attend the charismatic Waverley Christian Fellowship in Melbourne. In this church, as well as in the Asian Fellowship, Kriengsak quickly became a leader who demanded 100% commitment from his followers. People were expected to memorise 21 verses of scripture per week, doorto-door witnessing on Sundays between services, attend cell groups, and be involved in follow-up of new believers.

In 1976 Kriengsak received a vision to plant a church in every one of the 685 districts throughout Thailand. He also met his wife Rojana who came to share his vision for the Thai Church. Even on their honeymoon on Phillip Island in Australia they spend the days handing out tracks and witnessing to other holidaymakers and residents.

After he finished his university course with first-class honours he was then invited to study for his PhD in Australia for another three years, and during this time he was also able to complete studies in New Testament Greek while carrying out his other responsibilities in the church.

1.2 The Birth of “The Hope of Bangkok Church”

Kriengsak returned to Thailand in 1981 and took up a position lecturing in the Masters programme at Kasetsart University in northern Bangkok. He found himself disappointed with the teaching in the Thai Churches and within a few months began a new church service in the lecture room on the ninth floor of the Bangkok Christian hospital on Sunday, the sixth of September 1981, beginning with 17 people, many of whom were foreign missionaries with OMF international. Some of the OMF members who were present were Alex Smith, Henry Breidenthal, Alma Cunningham, Mary Cooke and Allanand MaeLyn Ellard1. By the end of the year there were 120 people attending the meeting. To begin with the music was very simple with only one guitarist leading the music and it gradually developed as more musicians became
available. In the beginning what really attracted people to come to join the meeting was Kriengsak's preaching and his vision for growing churches. He was a young man who was well educated, very intelligent, had integrity as well as great vision, was highly committed, worked very hard and had obvious leadership skills. There was great excitement in those early days as Kriengsak proved himself to be a capable leader full of integrity and passion to follow Christ. The missionaries working alongside him were also very impressed and excited at seeing a Thai Christian leader who was able to effectively grow a Thai Church. As well as being involved in the
numerous church activities and evangelism, these early members also read one book every week. Some Thai members showed their commitment even to the point of selling their house and moving into rented premises in order to meet some of the expenses of the church.

Kriengsak himself set an example of someone who was intensely committed to follow-up and discipline. He was able to lead one of his school friends from Assumption College to know Christ (a member of the family that runs the central department stores in Bangkok). Every Wednesday morning at 6 a.m. he would travel from his home to meet in the missionary’s house to disciple this young man before they both went off to work2. Kriengsak was never late.

1.3 Expansion and Growth

In the second year of the church (1982) the growth in numbers slowed considerably and Kriengsak determined that this was due to a lack of unity in the leadership team and lack of commitment to the vision by some of the leaders. As a result, Kriengsak decided that he would only appoint leaders who had come up through the church and whom he had trained personally. After seven years of growth “the statistics would show that 93% of church members had been converted at Hope of Bangkok with the remaining 7% being transplants from other churches”3. During this time a cell group program was implemented in a big way, which consisted of a clear follow-up program for new converts. The cells were organised all around the greater Bangkok area and a pastor was appointed to each one of the districts to oversee the cell groups and to train the leaders of each one of the cell groups. A program of leadership training was implemented through these cells. Everyone was expected to be involved in follow-up of new believers including Kriengsak himself. There are many stories of his total commitment to doing the work of the church over and above his commitment to his family and other priorities. One of them is the fact that he did not attend the birth of his first son despite the fact that his wife was having difficulties during the pregnancy because on that night he was counselling a drug addict and leading him to Christ.

Another story is of Kriengsak making follow-up appointments at 5 a.m. in order to
have time for all of his other commitments at work and church. In 1983 a special evangelistic campaign was commenced with the aim of raising the membership to 200 by the end of the year. This target was met and raised the need for larger premises so in November 1983 the Hope of Bangkok church moved to the Sheraton hotel. When this began to be insufficient, the Hope of Bangkok church obtained the Oscar Theatre in Petchburi Road, and was able to commence a service there with about 400 people in November 1984. As the congregation grew the church was able to increase its range of activities and established interest groups in areas such as Bible study, playing a musical instrument, song leading, singing, typing, computer skills, and speaking English. New congregations were started as well as student cell groups on main university campuses.

In May 1985 the Hope of Bangkok church had about 700 members and was able to pay off the money that Kriengsak owed for his bond in studying overseas. As a result he was released for full-time ministry and established the Thailand Bible Seminary, which offered short-term courses as well as a four-year bachelor degree in theology and various Masters Degree programs for university graduates. In the same year the Hope of Phayao church was established, although not without difficulties. In the next few years other churches were established in Chiang Mai, Suratthani, and Nakhon Sri Thammarat.

During this time of growth in the 1980s the structure and organisation of the Hope of Bangkok became increasingly autocratic. Bangkok was divided into four districts, each directed by one of the four men who work closely with Dr Kriengsak. These four districts would compete on the basis of growth figures, and awards would be handed out each Sunday for the best cell church leader in the district over the last week. Visitors to the church would be given different coloured nametags according to their classification. Visitors from other churches would receive a yellow nametag. People who were not yet Christians would receive a green nametag. A member of the
church would have a red nametag. There would always be an altar call at the end of each service and there would be pressure on the non-Christian with a green nametag to go forward and make a commitment to Christ. With such coercive techniques many people who came for the first time never returned to the church

Figure 1- Growth of the Hope of Bangkok Church

In 1989, the present premises at Khlong Toey were obtained and by 1991 the Hope of Bangkok church was claiming around 6000 members. Marten Visser doing research on Thai churches estimates that today the Hope of Bangkok throughout Thailand has about 40,000 members.5 In 2003, their annual camp was held at Khon Kaen over two weeks with 15,000 people attending each week. The OMF short-term worker who attended the camp was given the impression that these people represented 75% of the total membership of the Hope of Bangkok Church. The Thailand Evangelisation Committee is currently trying to obtain accurate figures of the membership numbers, but these are very difficult to obtain.

1.4 Problems

The explosive growth combined with the aggressive techniques in follow-up and attracting new members to the church led to friction within the evangelical Fellowship of Thailand. These problems surfaced in many different ways. One was the extremely high level of commitment that was demanded of the Hope of Bangkok church. Members were expected to attend Sunday meetings for the whole day, cell church meetings throughout the week, follow-up of new believers and seekers as well as student meetings on campuses, interest groups and personal Bible study and scripture memory programs. This very high level of commitment to church activities caused friction with the other organisations and institutions that church members were involved with.

The most obvious of these was the immediate family of new church members who would become resentful of the amount of time that a new convert would spend in church activities. In October 2000 this led to some bad press in the Matichon newspaper because of a female university student who committed suicide by jumping out of a high story window. The allegation was that she had been involved in the Hope of Bangkok church and also Campus Crusaders for Christ which had contributed to her suicide. While this allegation was not substantiated it did lead to
further allegations in the media of the Hope of Bangkok church drawing young people away from their families.

One Thai student, who is presently the wife of a pastor of an ACT church in Bangkok attended the Hope of Bangkok student meetings at Kasertsart University in the early 1990s. She said that there were enormous expectations to attend meetings and to be involved in all the evangelistic activities of the student group. This made her feel increasingly uncomfortable and eventually she had to cut off communication with the group because of the aggressive approach that was used in bringing her to meetings.

Her observation was that there was a very high emphasis on attending meetings and being involved in Christian activities to the point that the emphasis on a personal relationship with God suffered. She received the impression that Hope of Bangkok members were so busy attending meetings and that doing activities that very little time was left for personal Bible reading and prayer

There were also some allegations of church members not being able to contribute in the workplace as a result of their high level of commitment to church activities. In 1983, Alan Bennett7 was the director of the Far Eastern Broadcasting Company, which employed members from the Hope of Bangkok Church. When he needed to address the problem of his staff falling asleep during the day while they should have been working, their response was that they needed to sleep because of the constant demand to attend cell group meetings and church activities until late in the evening. If they did not attend the meetings then they would be fined a sum of between 20 and 50 Baht. Mr Bennett contacted Dr Kriengsak to try to address the issue of high
expectations that were put on the Hope of Bangkok church members, but was met with the response that these people were doing the work of God and must attend all the church meetings. There was an apparent indifference to the obligations that church members had to their employers as well as to their church.

Over a period of time during the 1980s there were increasing complaints about the behaviour of Hope of Bangkok church members. Many of the complaints stemmed
rom a perception that Hope of Bangkok members were trying to coerce members from existing mainstream churches to join up with the Hope of Bangkok. These complaints came frequently and were not isolated. Due to the increasing number of complaints, the Evangelical Fellowship of Thailand communicated to Dr Kriengsak a desire to talk about these issues. The behaviour of the Hope of Bangkok church members in attempting to recruit church members from other churches within the Evangelical Fellowship of Thailand was outside of the policies and principles laid down by the Fellowship. A number of attempts were made to clear these matters up with the leadership of the Hope of Bangkok church. When Dr Kriengsak and other Hope of Bangkok church leaders refused to meet with the board of the evangelical Fellowship, the board eventually took the action of putting the Hope of Bangkok church under discipline. In January 1987, the Hope of Bangkok church was suspended from the Evangelical Fellowship of Thailand.

The EFT laid down a number of conditions for reinstatement in order to make the Hope Churches work better with other church groups, such as the approval of the existing churches for new church plants in a town or city, and approval of change of membership from an existing church into the Hope of Bangkok.

In October 1990 there was a dispute in the leadership team of the Hope of Bangkok church. Dr Kriengsak had been travelling in the United States and on his return he expelled one of his senior leaders from the church. The reason for his expulsion was never quite clear except that the leaders who were expelled were accused of rebellion and trying to take over control of the church. As a result four people were excommunicated and at the end of the next week another four leaders were also put out of the church because they questioned the decision. Church members were forbidden to have contact with the leaders who were expelled from the church and the homes of these leaders were put under surveillance to make sure that everyone obeyed.

Over the next month there was a big emphasis on authority and obeying leaders, which became the main topic of sermons and seminars. It seems at this time that Dr Kriengsak had become untouchable and no one was able to call him to account. In December 1991, a delegation was sent from the Waverley Christian chapel in Melbourne to confront Dr Kriengsak on many of the unresolved issues that were affecting his reputation, including a charge of adultery. Dr Kriengsak was not open to being questioned and denied any wrongdoing.

In 2003 the evangelical Fellowship of Thailand reiterated its warning to all of its members not to have any formal relationship or engage in any programmed activities with any churches that had been suspended because of “disciplinary issues” which could only refer to the Hope of Bangkok Church.

2 A Personal Experience

I attended an 11.45am – 2.30pm service at the Hope Place in Khlong Toey. The
average age of about 25-30 years. It is the largest church meeting that I have attended during my 10 years in Thailand. A band led the worship from the front stage singing modern tunes, but also some older songs. The main pastor is Phitsanunart Sritawong who is married to Dr Kriengsak’s sister. Kriengkrai Suphiphatanamori preached the sermon in an expository style.

One Thai man about 40 years of age came and befriended me and introduced me to his friends. He has phoned me five times in three weeks inviting me to attend services and seminars at the church, even though he knows that I am a missionary with another organisation and that I have regular preaching appointments in other churches. He had obviously been trained to follow-up any show of interest among new people who turn up to church. There is quite a large bookshop selling a number of mainstream Christian titles from different distributors in both Thai and English. At the same time as the service was in progress, they were also a number of other different groups having meetings around the building and inside the building. There are also many other special events taking place through at the weekend on a regular basis such as:
Bible teaching seminars, special midweek praise service, anniversary of children's ministry, a seminar on how to pass the entrance exam, and the 23rd anniversary celebration of the founding of the church

I talked to one man about the difficulty of obtaining statistics about membership numbers and growth, to which he replied that the leaders probably did not want to give statistics in order that there would not be an emphasis on numbers of people, but rather on the quality of their growth. He also added, “Some people do not understand us and might use the statistics in the wrong way.”

3 Distinctives of the Hope of Bangkok

3.1 Clear Vision

The Hope of Bangkok began with a very clear vision of planting a church in every one of the 685 amphurs in Thailand by the year 2000. This was the vision that kept the growth going for the first few years as the church sought to plant new churches outside Bangkok, beginning in Phayao, then Chiang Mai and other major provincial towns around Thailand. Hope churches were also established in other countries such as Malaysia, Sydney, Seattle and Singapore and connected through an international network of relationships. The current vision of the Hope of Bangkok is to be “A Healthy Church” according to the church bulletin and the slogan on the walls of the worship meeting advertising an upcoming seminar.

3.2 Corporate Organisation

A high level of organisation is apparent within the structure of the Hope of Bangkok church. There is a strong emphasis on structure and system within the church. There is a clear method of evangelism, follow-up, establishing new believers in cell groups, training leaders, and lines of authority. Many Thai churches seem to be based around a family model that is often suitable to a small town context. The Hope of Bangkok seems to take a different approach by adopting a more corporate model where organisation and obedience to the appointed leadership is very important. As a result future direction of the whole church. This increases the efficiency of decision-making and the ability of the leaders to set the direction and the pace of change. Thai people are generally known to be quite passive towards leadership and so this model works
quite well in the Thai context. The organisational model is suitable for a big city context where a multitude of activities are offered for people to be involved in, multiple services on each Sunday, choice of various cell groups to attend in a certain area, but at the same time maintaining a clear focus on a common vision. On the other hand, this type of leadership structure has a possible weakness. While there is great accountability for members of the church to attend meetings and to be involved in church activities, there is little accountability by the leaders towards the
members they serve. It seems that the leaders demand obedience but that the same time this model lacks transparency of the leadership towards the membership in terms of financial accountability, personal lives of the leaders and involving the membership in major decisions that are made which affect the future direction of the church. Edwin Zhener refers to Dr Kriengsak’s style as the “functional equivalent of the traditional Chinese patriarch atop the family business” and compares the bureaucracy of the church to that of “a large-scale Chinese organisation where financial matters are handled through a staff function where the details can be kept privately among a few individuals”9

As a result it is difficult for members to express frustration and disappointment within the church structure and this seems to lead to a fairly high turnover of membership. It is relatively easy to find people in mainstream churches who have at one time or another been members of the Hope of Bangkok church, but have become frustrated by the high expectations, the coercive tactics used to make people perform, and the lack of power among common members to influence decisions.

Performance and activity take a high priority within the structure of the Hope of Bangkok church. This is highlighted by such practices as imposing a fine of small amounts of money on people for not attending meetings, or arriving late for meetings such as cell groups or Sunday services. It is not known whether this practice still continues or not. Each year there is also a highly professional award ceremony where awards are given to various pastors around the country for their performance in different areas. The award ceremony is titled “The Best of the Best”10.

This kind of practice would make most mainstream church members very uncomfortable but
seems to be normal accepted practice for the Hope of Bangkok Church where pastors are given a high profile and are judged on their results in terms of numerical growth.

3.3 A Unique Way of Conducting Church Services

The Pentecostal style of running a service is attractive to young people because it is lively and upbeat with big bands, expressive worship, and emotional sermons. The emphasis on miracles and healing is also a magnet for many people who are impressed by such an emphasis, and also for those who are looking to be healed of their physical illnesses. As the Hope of Bangkok church was being established in the early eighties this was a time when Pentecostal-style churches were growing all over the world. The Hope of Bangkok led the way in providing exciting worship in a
contemporary format and in adopting new songs from overseas as well as providing the church with new songs written by its own members.

As well as having contemporary worship, Dr Kriengsak was also able to feed his congregation through expository preaching, which is not typical of most charismatic churches. In this way
he was able to bring together the most appealing aspects of both charismatic style churches and the more conservative evangelical churches. He was able to disciple people not just by preaching the Bible, but also by enabling people to put into practice what they learn. Dr. Kriengsak knew very well that people learn best by putting into action the things that they hear, and he did this to an extent that many mainline churches would not consider.

Dr Kriengsak also suited the Pentecostal style of church in his leadership style where the pastor is normally given a lot of authority and scope for ministry. Being a man of the enormous capability and intellect he was able to command the respect of those who followed him. He was a very effective preacher and was able to move those who listened to him through his passion and his commitment. As a result the church became an expression of his personality and ministry where he became the key to making things work. Nobody within the congregation would think of refusing him anything that he asked for.

3.4 Follow up

Many churches lose people because they do not adequately follow-up those who attend services and express an interest in joining the church. By implementing an effective system for follow-up, Dr Kriengsak was able to address this major problem by expecting that a visitor to the church would receive a visit within 24 hours. All 15members were held accountable for the way that they follow up any prospective church members that they meet. In this way Dr Kriengsak was able to effectively involve the majority of the membership in ministry and to see the church grow quickly. Because there would be pressure placed on people to bring new members to the church, many Hope of Bangkok members would aggressively try to pursue those who were in their circles of friendship. By having a clear system and expectation of how to do follow-up, Thai church members were able to break out of their traditional shyness and embarrassment.

This system of implementing follow-up was a major cause of friction with other churches in the Evangelical Fellowship of Thailand. Hope of Bangkok members would sometimes attend other mainstream churches with the goal of attracting these church members to attend the Hope of Bangkok meeting. Using this method was an effective way of attracting members who already had a Christian foundation and could provide some stability and possibly even become leaders within the Hope of Bangkok church. Often cell groups would be set up in the homes of Christians who belonged to other churches. As the cell group met in a home of a member who belonged to another church, they would gradually be drawn into the circle of the Hope of Bangkok. These kinds of methods led to an increasing number of protests from leaders of mainline churches

3.5 High level of commitment

Few Thai Christian leaders have the status, the charisma and the influence that Dr Kriengsak had over his followers. Since he himself was the man who led by example of total commitment to the work of the church over and above other priorities, he was able to demand no less from those who followed him. As the church continued to grow and the momentum built up, so did the expectations that Dr Kriengsak was able to put on those who followed him. This stands in stark contrast to the general demands of the Buddhist religion and the demands of most mainstream churches in Bangkok which makes most activities purely voluntary and with no great pressure applied to be involved. As a result Dr Kriengsak was able to break through the deadlock that most churches find in not being able to mobilise their members to a high level of commitment to church activities and outreach. By mobilising his church 16 members to be involved in work he was able to multiply the ministry and the effectiveness in reaching outsiders to come into the Hope of Bangkok church.

Although some people were turned off by the methods used, it has obviously brought results in terms of numerical growth and is continuing to do so. This demand for a high level of commitment also had a downside. In the case where a church member was not able to keep up the commitment to meetings and activities, the church member would feel forced to leave the church. Leaving would be viewed as a failure and when the member attended another church they might be viewed with suspicion because of their background11.

Dr Kriengsak Today

Dr Kriengsak has currently no known connection to the Hope of Bangkok church. At
present his current responsibilities are:
• “Member of the National Economic and Social Advisory Council
- Chairman of the Education, Religion, Arts and Culture Commission
- Vice Chairman of the Economic, Commerce and Industry Commission
• Research Professor, Regent University, Virginia, USA
• Executive Director, Institute of Future Studies for Development, Bangkok.
• Chairman, Success Group of Companies”12

A search for his name on the Internet showed more than 100 hits on various web pages referring to his speeches at seminars on economic growth and development. Any references that once existed linking his name with Christian activities and the Hope of Bangkok Church have been erased.13 He is also taking initiatives to promote understanding of the Buddhist religion and history by sponsoring a program to send Thai young people to Sri Lanka.14 There are also a references to a few comments he has made regarding the present Prime Minister of Thailand raising the question of whether he has political ambitions.

5 Lessons for the Thai Church

5.1 Strong National leadership

There is no doubt that the key to the initial and explosive growth of the Hope of Bangkok church was the result of Dr Kriengsak's leadership. He was a man who had had a powerful conversion experience and had the qualities necessary to become a powerful leader in the Christian church. People respected and listened to him and through his vision he was able to lead a large number of people in a common direction. He was very influential not only with Thai people but also with many foreigners who were impressed with his character and his leadership. Because of his charisma he was able to break through the complacency that many Thai Christians show towards their faith and lead them on the into a very high level of commitment and activity. He was an exceptional individual who displayed qualities that are very rare in the Thai Christian church. Although his strong leadership style caused friction and conflicts with other churches he was able to grow his church very quickly, knowing that his membership respected and supported his leadership, at least in the early years of his ministry.

5.2 Accountability of church members

Kriengsak recognised that Christians in general need to have a system of accountability and this was one of the first things that he instituted in the new Christians life. A new convert would receive immediate follow-up within 24 hours as a rule, and each member of the Hope of Bangkok church was expected to attend activities and to be involved in the vision of the church. As a result he was able to change the prominent culture of many churches in which all activities are purely voluntary and members are not expected to contribute very much to church activities.

In the Thai church in general, accountability of the believer’s spiritual growth through Bible reading and prayer, and being involved in evangelism or doing follow-up of new believers can be a weakness. Kriengsak was able to change these perceptions and mobilise people for Christian ministry. The most effective structure to do this in was to work through small groups where accountability and leadership training can take place and where new believers can also be given a sense of belonging to a smaller group. Instituting a system of fines for not attending meetings and by coercing 18 people to be involved in activities could be said to be going too far. There is a fine line between holding people accountable and coercing and manipulating people.

5.3 Commitment among the membership

Commitment to Christ means a radical change in a person's life. By expecting and
demanding a strong commitment to the church, Kriengsak was able to exercise a powerful influence over the lives of new converts. Many leaders who try to do this will simply cause their church members to turn away, but because Kriengsak had so many appealing qualities he was able to draw people into a strong sense of commitment. As a result the church was able to become united and work as a coherent and corporate body under him. Those who could not accept his strong style of leadership would simply move on to somewhere where they felt more comfortable. It would have been impossible for anyone to stay on and challenge his authority until serious questions regarding his reputation became apparent.

5.4 Accountability of leadership

It seemed that the Hope of Bangkok church lacked a procedure by which the top leaders could be held accountable when they overstepped their mark and began to manipulate its church members instead of serving them. As Dr Kriengsak grew in his influence he would not hold himself accountable to anybody including his former mentors from the Waverley Christian Fellowship. This shows the importance of church leaders to always hold themselves accountable to the people that they lead. Transparency and openness in decision making and also in lifestyle and spiritual walk is essential to maintain growth and morale in the church. It is also necessary in order to maintain a good reputation with those outside of the organisation.

6 Conclusion

The Hope of Bangkok Church has grown at a faster rate than any other church in Thailand and the growth has not slowed in spite of both internal and external conflicts. The methods and the structure of the Hope of Bangkok are worth considering by the mainline churches that want to see growth in both numbers and the quality of its membership. Church leaders may well want to consider the stronger corporate model of the Hope of Bangkok Church with clear lines of authority where cell group leaders and district leaders are given authority to lead and pastor the people under their care.

Young leaders with potential need to be encouraged and developed. To do this they need to be given responsibility with clear structures of accountability so that they do not become proud, or discouraged. A clear system of follow up is needed for first time visitors so that opportunities are not wasted because people who visit a church do not feel welcome and included. Church members need to be trained and given clear instructions and expectations about what their role and function is in the life of the church. The Hope of Bangkok Church illustrates that these structures and expectations can have a very strong influence on the growth of a church, and can liberate people for God’s service. If church members or leaders are motivated by fear of punishment or a desire for power, then it will ultimately have a negative influence on the church.

The Hope of Bangkok Church has shown a model for church growth and church planting which mainline churches would do well to study closely and learn from in the light of what God’s word teaches about their practices. The challenge is finding the delicate balance of living in the light ofGod’s grace where Christ’s love compels our members to be active in the church. Church leaders need to find a good balance so that God’s kingdom will be established in Thailand.

Bibliography

Boyd C. “The Apostle of Hope- The Dr Kriengsak Story” Richard Clay Ltd, Suffolk,
UK, 1991

Zhener E. “Church Growth and Culturally Appropriate Leadership: three examples
from the Thai church”, School of world mission, Cornell University, 1987

Mäkelä J. “Krischak Issara; The Independent Churches in Thailand. Their historical
background, Contexual Setting, and Theological Thinking.” Åbo Akademi University
Press, 2000

Hope of Bangkok Church Website http://www.hope.or.th Available, 2004

”The Best of the Best” VCD, Hope of Bangkok, 2003

What is true restoration

2009-08-15T02:45:00.001-07:00

When a person sins against the Lord, it usually takes time for a person to be restored properly. Depending on the type of sin, there is different level of restoration. We often say in Hope a sin is a sin, there is no big sin and small sin. But in actually fact, i do think there is, because the sin we commit will determine the outcome of our lifes.

How do i know ? Well, if all sins are the same then the bible won't mention that there is one sin that God will never forgive - Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Abraham lied out of fear of being killed because of His wife yet God did nothing, but when people worship the idols and created the golden calf, God dealt with them, When david committed adultery and murder, the son born to David out of his sin was struck down by God, also God cursed David and said that what he did in secret, his son - absalom will do in broad daylight.

So depending on the degree of our sin, it also will determine the type of restoration. I have seen leader get angry and said things they should not have said, but this did not warrant them to step down. But in the case of adultery, or financial misappropriation or even lying - often times these sins warrant the leaders to step down from point of authority and be properly counselled and in Hope terminology - Shepherded. They have to prove that they are capable again to handle places of authority and work from ground up.

In Dr.Dan and Mr PN's view, PN only ask for forgiveness from Dr .Dan . But never never, straight to the congregation. He has never publicly apologise but swept the issue under the carpet. Apparently Dr Dan, forgive him and ask him to continue being the leader, in Dr Dan's view once a person repents there is no need to face the consequence. What can i say, they are from the same flock, even dr. Dan separated from his Wife... mind you... in the Apostle of Hope book, he personally mentioned that it was God himself that confirmed her as his wife.... mmmm..apparently this man is suppose to be Godly and is still running the Hope of God Bangkok church with Mr. PN.

The truth is with a sin of such magnitude, Dr Dan should never be the spiritual advisor of Hope and should be asked to step down unless he himself is willing to come under Godly authority. Secondly, Mr PN should step down from his role as a Church leader.

He should
No. 1 - Spend time with his wife. Build up his family and restore the love. Submit his life under Godly authority. Not Dr. Dan ... he does not qualify to be a Godly person.. its like a drug addict who wanting to quit drugs and be counselled by a drug dealer. It never works. Find someone Godly.

There is enough counselling books for adultery issues to have me devle into what he should do.

The bible has mentioned in 1 Peter - that unless a man can prove he can take care of his family and be a Godd husband. Then he disqualifies himself to be a leader in the house of God.

Anyway... we will reap what we sow. If that is the way a leader like him behaves, then the people under him will do that too. And the worst part, how can PN have the authority to tell someone and speak into their lifes.

Can u imagine when he teaches Family church or teaching about humilty or integrity. Personally I find it hard to stand in front of the pulpit day in and day out preaching on something that I cannot keep.

Its like the pot calling the kettle black.

Well, the key to successfully finishing this race is never be afraid to humble oneself even if it means having to step down, to help stablise your christian life. Because there is a time for everything under the sun, a time to laugh, a time to cry... ( Ecc ), remember it is not about trying to prove you are a good speaker or being in authority. Seriously God does not care if you are a pastor of 10000 or just one person. Because it is the heart God looks at...

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

2009-08-09T08:47:00.001-07:00

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

This week, James Loke concludes on this subject as he elaborates on How Accountability Works.

Accountability is much related to openness and transparency.

Paul was voluntarily transparent in administering financial matters in 2 Corinthians 8:20-21. He wanted not only to be blameless but to be seen as blameless.

Accountability is not just dutiful reporting. It reinforces trust revives synergistic forces between a leader and his followers. Honest straightforward communication can powerfully bind team members together in the same direction and strengthen relations and trust as a leader leads the entire church to achieve what God has called the church to do.

Accountability does not mean explaining every measure implemented by the leader. In moments of crisis it is not expedient to hold meetings and explain everything. But the leader must be willing to give an account when called upon to do so at the appropriate time.

Being accountable also does not mean that a leader should sacrifice all privacy for himself and his family. The church should not make the same demands on their leaders as the public makes on movie stars or public figures. The constant nuisance by the paparazzi has not made movie stars more accountable in their behavior.

There has to be a balance and followers cannot expect or demand too much. They should be careful not to ask their leaders to account unnecessarily so that they can have freedom to lead without being bogged down by frivolous explaining.

Some other key attitudes that would help accountability in leadership are:

Servanthood

1 Peter 5 reminds us that a good leader sets inspiring examples instead of acting merely as a commander-in-chief. When leaders “walk the talk”, they will be inspirational.

Humility

Leaders will continually face temptation to think more highly or lowly of themselves than they are. We are all instructed by Paul to evaluate our lives with “sober judgment” in Romans 12:3. Leaders could be tempted to believe that they are above giving an account to anyone.

Honesty

Accountability works best when leaders are honest. There is always the possibility that a leader will want to look good and provide justification for wrong decisions and misguided policies rather than honestly admit his fault and apologize for his mistake.

When Accountability Fails

Accountability starts to fail if a person sins, or has a besetting sin, which is not confessed and dealt with. This occurs because of the pride of the sinner who does not want his guilt exposed and because of his shame he is unwilling to honestly face his problem. As a result he has to hide his wrong behaviour. In this condition, the sinning leader finds it difficult to reveal the truth and it may take some time before it becomes apparent to those around that something is wrong. The sinning leader seems to have a compartment of his life that he is unwilling to reveal to others. If the sin continues it is likely that lies will be told to hide the truth.

Ultimately, it is very doubtful that a church should or can implement procedures or structures to enforce accountability. This is why it is very important that a leader walks in the light in fellowship with the Holy Spirit (1 John 1:5-9). The only way that these kinds of problems can be detected early is through the discernment of the Spirit. Leaders need to be empowered by the Spirit and walk close to God; only in this way can God begin to deal with sin in the camp.

Conclusion

Biblical leaders are required to give an account for their work and ministry. There is a 360° accountability to superiors, peers and followers although the aspects of accountability to each group are different. Leaders need to walk close to God to give a good account for their life and ministry.

We thank Ian Foley, Prakich Treetasayudh and Wilson Lim who provided valuable comments to an earlier draft of this article.

The reason for this blog on PN and Dr. Dan

2009-08-09T07:56:00.000-07:00

I know many people who read this blog will have different opinions varying from the curious to the well lets just say politically correct christian. I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion. But as to why this blog exist is because this is the way I want to make sure things are no longer hidden.

This blog would not exist but for the fact that Mr PN and the Advisor " Dr J " has been profiteering in the name of God using Church money to do what they please, teaching idolatry and doing things which breaks the commandment of God. Many people gave our life to the Church some over 10 years like myself, and when previously i asked about how our Church money especially in HGI was used.

All i got was, it will be used to help pastor in their airfares and to organise the Pastor's Conference and to run the HGI office. Dont forget the amount was 20% of all International church collection. I dont suppose anyone would guess how much money would that amount to ? A simple calculation would undoubtedly tell you the money that was at their disposal. Can i ask those who are in Hope, if any of your pastor was helped by the funds that went to HGI ? Have anyone actually seen the audited accounts for the past 15-20 years of Hope existance ? Why do we just simply assume. Money when not accounted properly can corrupt, look at Judas.

I have been in Hope now close to 17 years and I have never personally seen a breakdown of how the money was spent. There is no audited figures. We are all just as responsible with God's money because if we are leaders in our local church yet we do not know ask the question, then are we being good steward ? It was money given to Hope Bangkok to help run the HGI office, but what did it run in the end ?? Dr Dan's so-called organisation.

We send workers out into the field to plant churches, yet we are not able to help them financially but ask them to send money back to HGI. I have done my share of pionnerring work and we all had to slogged working to raise fund for ourselves at the same time building the church, while PN and Dr. Dan used our money to build up their empire.

If this blog did not exist, future generations would be misled, this i can forsee, especially since they are still running part of the Hope Church. If PN and Dr. Dan, no longer is in control of the church and no longer hold any influence, this blog would no longer exist, this is my promise." I am angry because, i think sometimes in Hope we become so nice and politically correct that when Leaders sin, we close one eye and pretend that all is fine and dandy. We try to be holy and be a patient christian, while in the same time PN and Dr Dan, twist all the truth and tell people different things. I bet many people dont know how PN manage to split the church , you can say they much more scheming then I thought. Once the issue was out, PN and Dr. Dan was already devising ways to make sure they stay in power while at the same playing the repentant leader. So many people were deceived.

I can say, I guranntee many leaders and pastors feel that anger, but i know as a leader, many have to try and be nice and cannot come forth and be direct. While I on the other hand, prefer to call a spade, a spade.

Therefore, I will never allow such unspeakable acts by PN and Dr.Dan be consigned to the pages of Hope History. Lets not whitewash the past, are we going to be like the Japanese who changed their History books to wipe out the atrocities they committed during World War II to the point that their future generation do not even know what their forefathers did.

For those who feel that this blog should not exist the solution is very simple, if anyone can speak to the Hope Bangkok Church and get them to get Dr Dan and Mr PN to take responsibility over the issues pointed in the blog. Then I will not continue with the blog.

You know I dont like to be a NATO - "No action talk only" person. That is why i make sure this blog exist so whoever is approached by PN and Dr.Dan will know about their past...

Hopf of God Bangkok Website showing Cindy Prophesy

2009-08-01T09:20:00.001-07:00

I read with interest that PN would put Cindy's prophesy on the Church website. I don't know if PN actually listen to her whole prophesy or did he have selective hearing. I am sure if you scroll back to my blog on the video of Cindy's prophesy. Then you will hear the blessing AND ALSO the WARNINGS given by Cindy regarding to the prophesy.

Cindy actually gave 3 specific warning failing which this prophesy will not be fulfilled. If you are intesrested the video is on my previous post.

I wonder if the international Organisations know of this issue going on in Hope Church.... I wonder if Cindy Jacob knows... what is going on... oh.. well I am sure "they" will know soon enough.

I am pretty sure PN will have people reading this blog, so if you are from PN church, maybe he should account himself to the international Community and see what they think of his well, indiscretions, teachings on idolatory and also financial mismangement. Failing which I am sure the international church organisations which he is currently on will soon hear about what he is doing.

Please don't hide behind the curtain and face the people and answer our queries, but i know PN will not reply, we have tried but he prefer to ask people to just obey him as he is the DIVINE leader. So if you are from PN's church and reading this ask him not to hide and answer the charges.

I am sure PN will know this lone person here, will make sure that the any international christian organisation he joins will get a copy of the "video"- in english of course, so that maybe they can ask you to answer those charges instead of running away.

Blessings without Conditions ?

We consider it to be a great blessing and joy those , who serve God at a Global level, to give their love, acceptance and friendship to our Hope Church, especially to our Pastor and leaders. If we remember in 2006 when a world-wide known servant of God came to visit us; we held a special seminar in the Imperial Samrong. On that day Cindy Jacobs had an opportunity to share the Word of God and prophecy over many leaders, one thing Cindy said was that in Thailand there will be new banks established even though at that time the economy in Thailand had already began to fall, what is miraculous is that in that same year there was a new bank started in Thailand. What challenges our faith today is the prophecy saying that Hope Church will have its own bank, Hope Church will have its own television station (today we have Hope Channel). Pastor Joseph (PN) will write a book, ( Suggestion for a title - " I CAN DO ALL THINGS - A new look at Philippians Chap 3" and this book will be a blessing to the people of the world, and not just in Thailand. Or myself, Dr. Cindy prophesied that I would get into mass media, at that time I did not have any Knowledge or know-how, and looked as if I had no opportunity to get into any type of media work, and most importantly I did not even like to work in media. However at the present I have the opportunity to be responsible for the Media, communications of the Church, and co-hosted with Mr. Akekapong in the “living Styles” Program and the “Design News” program which is aired Sat. 10:00pm on the “National Channel” this is the leading and guidance of God. These things just confirm that God is the one who drives his church according to the prophecy.

Therefore, we are confident in the mercy of God towards us, and that is why we say without a doubt, that he will bring it to pass and bring us to success, because He who called us is faithful and He will finish His work.

How should christian respond to leaders who commit adultery

2009-07-31T06:02:00.000-07:00

What do everyone think if a leader commits adultery, what do you think the church should respond.

-If the pastor admits his mistake should he continue to serve in a leadership capacity without proper restoration ?

- Does everyone think then in PN's case and what he said that He is divinely appointed is reasonable ?

- So how should we help the person involved ? His wife and the third party ?

Blogging about PN

2009-07-31T05:55:00.000-07:00

Here is a quick response to some comments, while yes I do not like to follow PN, in fact as I had mentioned i wanted to keep it quiet and from my blog I am sure many will know that I have not blog for awhile, because our leaders have decided to split way.

Unfortunately, Mr PN is not willing to give up, he has tried to email and called people to sway them and telling them half-truth. I know of leaders who have personally received email from Mr.PN telling them that he is still the head of HGI and what we did was wrong, he mislead alot of leaders and because our leaders from HGI have been very nice and not said much and tries to play it down, PN used this opportunity to spread confusion among the people.

I suppose my blog is also my own personal opinion of the person whom i used to look up to, I look at his twitter, blog and website and sometimes I just like to point out the irony of what he is trying to do.

Maybe I would also post questions than people can also give their opinion

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

2009-07-31T05:47:00.000-07:00

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

Last week, we covered the Need for Biblical Accountability. In this post, we bring you Part 2 of 3 on this subject written by James Loke.

Who Do Leaders Account To?

Leadership accountability involves three spheres:

To Senior Leadership

Leaders have to account to those over them, other more senior leaders or if no one else, God Himself. The concept of accountability in this sphere is straightforward, like that of every believer who accounts to the Lord after this life (1 Th 5:12-13). There is a major difference in operation as the Lord knows everything about our stewardship but the senior leader may not. Accountability would require the leader to tell his senior leader relevant information in his life and ministry that would help the senior leader to oversee him effectively (Heb 13:17). Even a leader may have blind spots and a senior leader, who is more matured and experienced in life and ministry, would help the former do the work of the ministry more fruitfully. An important example of top leadership accountability is seen in the life of Moses who was publicly rebuked and judged by God in Num 20:11-12.

To Peers

In the New Testament, leadership is always plural. This is demonstrated by elders operating in plurality in the New Testament churches, with other elders in the same local church or with elders in other churches. No leader was exempt from having to account to his peers. At the highest level of apostleship, Peter was still accountable to Paul. Paul had no qualms to rebuke him regarding segregating himself away from the Gentiles in the presence of Jews (Gal 2:11-14). Gal 6:1-2 holds us responsible to be our brother’s keeper.

To Followers

Church members have willingly placed themselves under the leadership. Leaders owe it to followers to regularly communicate where and how they are leading them. There is clear evidence that the apostles practiced this. In Acts 6, the apostles were accountable to the believers for the running of the church and came up with a novel idea of administration by a new team of deacons when their time conflicted with other priorities of prayer and ministry of the Word. In Acts 11, Peter explained to the believers why he visited Cornelius, a Gentile. Paul and Barnabas gave an account of their missionary journey to the church at Antioch (Acts 14:26-27).

Accountability in this sphere should not be misunderstood that the leaders are subservient to the followers. The accountability of the leaders to the followers arises from a partnership in serving God together. However, the leaders and the followers have distinct roles in this partnership with leaders leading.

How Accountability Works

Many churches have built-in accountability structures. These structures do have some effectiveness but accountability works best when the leader himself has the right internal makeup.

Accountability works best with good relationships. When Adam was having his walks with God in the evenings, he probably discoursed with God all he needed to tell His maker regarding his stewardship of the Garden of Eden. There was no need to invite God, the shareholder, for an Annual General Meeting to report on the fruitfulness in the Garden. When we have close relationships with those around us, we will not fear being judged by them.

Accountability provides both needed discipline and support for the leader. The leader knows that whatever he does will affect others and he may have to give an answer, explicitly or implicitly. He may be evaluated by his superiors, challenged by his peers, or asked for an answer by his juniors. Accountability can be a support system because when accountability is functioning properly superiors can give better advice with better knowledge, peers can chip in to shoulder issues when needed, and juniors know how they can help support the leader for best results.

….. to be continued in the next post.

We thank Ian Foley, Prakich Treetasayudh and Wilson Lim who provided valuable comments to an earlier draft of this article.

Hope Bangkok Anniversary Theme...

2009-07-27T09:46:00.001-07:00

Before the original Hope... there was Original Coke. Then came Diet Coke and Coke 0. My point : Sometimes, things need to develop so we can enjoy more variety. Original recipe is good but I do like my KFC Hot and Spicy too...

I suppose its normal for them to prove a point.. I will not disagree they started Hope... but now i want "New Hope"

Celebrate the 28^th Anniversary ‘The Original Hope’

This September we will have an opportunity really thank God for all that he has brought our family through in the past 28 years. Even though the past few months may have seemed rough, but we know that God kept us and He will continue to keep us, that is why this September we will be celebrating ‘The Original Hope’

The name of Pastor PN - who is the real Joseph

2009-07-27T09:32:00.000-07:00

I do not know if everyone notice how our founder who used to be called Dr.Joseph Kriengsak now calls himself Dr. Dan ?

For almost a number of years, there have been a systematic removal of his name from Hope Archive. Books about him, or tapes with him preaching have to be returned to Bangkok.

And I am not sure if anyone notice. Pastor PN is now called Ps Joseph. This seemingly innocent switch hides a bigger motive.

Because Ps Joseph name is well known previously in the christian circle and if you type up a number of website. A lot of the christian database lists a Ps Joseph as the founder of the Hope of God movement.

I wonder if the main reason for Ps PN to adopt the name Joseph has something to do with Dr. Jospeh Kreigsak the actual founder of hope movement.

You begin to wonder why there is so much secrecy regarding this previous man of God Dr Joseph Kreingsak and why is he so ashamed to be associated with the people of God to the extent that he has to try and erase his name from our church history.

Maybe its his life, maybe they is a deeper reason for this. Lets not forget, up till now PN and DrJ have never once admitted what they did was wrong and ungodly.

Lets not be deceived. I really hope one day the people in Thailand can see who they are.

In the words of the rapper eminem.. "let the real Jospeh please stand up.... "

Would PN respond to comments ?? - Ps. Joseph Srithawang

2009-07-24T09:27:00.000-07:00

I read with interest comments posted on PN's blog in regards to all the allegations about him and what he did.

I can tell u now, that all the allegations about finance, adultery, idolatory and issues unbecoming of a christians are true. PN will not deny it, even Somthop did not deny it. Its recorded in a video published by Rubina. PN also has a youtube video in Thai, which he never and will not admit his wrong doings except that we have to abide by Divine Authority.

Remember friends Divine Authority is not a given right, if you abuse the authority given to you then you forfeit that authority.

Trust me PN will not say anything about the allegations because it is true. In fact, the lady who he had an affair with have physical evidence of SMS to prove it. Unfortunately, i cannot reveal her name for reasons I am sure we understand. But those who have seen it we cannot deny it.

So, never be hoodwinked. All PN is after is money to finance Dr Dan can do Campaign.

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

2009-07-24T04:29:00.000-07:00

Below is a post by our leaders, i think this makes a fantastic read. What they mention exactly sums up my feelings about biblical leadership. Hope you enjoy this article as much as i do

Biblical Leadership Functions with Accountability

The last few decades have seen the rise of many gifted church leaders who have successfully grown large churches. Their successes have resulted in huge amounts of trust placed on them. They operate as senior leaders in local churches with sole authority in many instances. Unfortunately, some of them have fallen into sin. This has given rise to greater attention to the issue of accountability. In this post, we bring you Part 1 of 3 on this subject written by James Loke.

Biblical Accountability

Biblical accountability is universal. Every Christian, after his life on earth, will account to the Lord Jesus regarding his stewardship of the gifts, talents and all that was entrusted to him in his lifetime.

Accountability comes with the role of Christian leadership. Those who take up Christian leadership embrace a responsibility to serve the Lord together with those they are serving with. The leader, implicitly or explicitly, can expect his life and actions to become fair game for public scrutiny. It is also expected of him to explain his decisions and actions if called upon to do so. In other words, a Christian leader has to be accountable by embracing responsibility, being transparent and answerable.

In this context, accountability is more than responsibility. For example, a care group leader can be responsible and finish all the tasks assigned to him but he may not be too concerned about how the work is done nor how it is viewed by others. One can be responsible yet not accountable. Accountability is an individually held sense of duty to account to others for one’s assignments.

The Need for Accountability

Fallen man is self-centred
The sinful nature causes humans, including Christians, to possibly make selfish decisions. It is not natural for fallen man to decide for the collective good; he has to change his paradigm for decision-making to make good decisions as a leader. Accountability encourages the leader to make decisions that would benefit the overall community since he has to be responsible for them, and accountability ensures trust which fosters unity and confidence.

Fallen man needs checks and balances
Fallen man can be tempted to wander from righteous principles, resulting in an abuse of authority. Lord Acton once said, “Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Leaders are likely to have their own biases and deficiencies. In addition to the Holy Spirit who guides spiritual leaders, checks and balances could take the form of organizational accountability structures, or godly mentors and peers.

God made men to work in teams
It is in God’s order that He invests different yet complementary gifts in leaders in the church so that they work best as a team. The Ephesians 4 ministry gifts are five-fold in nature, the Holy Spirit sovereignly dispenses nine spiritual gifts to different believers in 1 Corinthians 12, and various other gifts to different ones in Romans 12.

God’s idea is for plurality in leadership so that they can sharpen one another. “As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.” (Proverbs 27:17) Even godly leaders do need some help. In a local church, a gifted teacher may emphasize too much on studying the Bible at the expense of winning lost souls. But when that teacher is partnered with an evangelist, the burden of winning lost souls is transmitted to the congregation as well.

….. to be continued in the next post.

We thank Ian Foley, Prakich Treetasayudh and Wilson Lim who provided valuable comments to an earlier draft of this article.

Pro-God not Pro-hope

2009-07-23T08:36:00.000-07:00

I have pondered the implication for a long time. Now that we are no-longer in " Hope" by Hope i mean under the HGI and Hope Bangkok banner. I can slowly sense a lifting of joy among the international people, like a new lease of life and a brand new beginning. Finally we are free.

To highlight my point, if you ever read Mr PN's blog,

Taken from his excerpt

"Even though I am sad to accept their decision, I will not be disheartened. I want you to be clear that if you want to join the church that belongs to Hope of God family,under the spiritual covering of the founder, you need to come out to join the HG Ichurches that I and HGI believers all over the world will start in the near future

I have highlighted in red Spiritual covering of the founder. Ok who is this founder that HGI is proposed to be under. His name is Dr.J the divine head of the Hope movement. He is the Brother-in-law of Mr PN. He was the man who appointed Mr PN to succeed him so he can move behind the scene

Now, if we join Mr PN to be under the covering of Mr PN and ultimately Dr.J the man who apparently could absolve Mr PN's sin and asked to continue running Hope movement and the man whose own personal life was disputed by his very own wife who he has separated from.

Now, Dr.J was suppose to be " an apostle" a highly annointed person, who was suppose to also have a strong christian family. But.. now we know , his wife separated from him because he did want to listen to her and continue in his pursuit of his political ambition at the cost of his faith and family. He would pray to idols to appease and try to win votes, he would use our church money to finance his political ambition. Apparently, all the projects Dr.J ever started all lost money, and that is why he had to borrow from Hope Churches to finance his past election campaign - " even though i must add its illegal under thai election law." ( The case is still being investigated)

This is the apostle, our Hope movement have been under all these years. Now they are asking us to join them ?? Well, the key reasoning is we are a family... mmmm... unfortunately even though i have been in Hope more than 10 years, i am not Pro-Hope. I am Pro Jesus...

A movement is always fallible, and imperfect but God is not. When we join a church, it shoud be for the betterment of the kingdom, where churches should work together as much as we can to bring the lost to God.

Under PN and Dr.J it was always a us and them theory. Under PN and Dr.J we seldom every invite outside speakers only on rare occasion. we seldom join in Christian organised events with other churches.

From Ps Simon blog, i do think this is going to change which i believe would be a great thing for the new HIM churches.

Lets be Pro God... and not be tied down by our past. Be wary of PN and Dr.J

Live strong

Ps PN latest movement

2009-07-20T05:50:00.000-07:00

I know Mr PN has been in contact with a number of Thai leaders from overseas trying to persuade them to join him in starting HGI churches worldwide.

I know from someone that PN has got some contacts in US, which he plans to start Hope Church under HGI banner.

So if you hear anything from PN, please make sure you talk to your leaders in H.I.M to get a better picture before making any decision.

Divine Authority

2009-07-18T09:40:00.000-07:00

Over this past few months this word divine authority keeps resurfacing in the speeches by Mr. PN. The problem with alot of his teachings now is that instead of preaching and teaching from the bible. It has become a church they used to preach about, a church of selective preaching topics.

I have no doubt they know the bible, but the problem with living in sin and walking in sin, is that many topics cannot be fully expressed. Example is the teaching on Divine Authority . I have an IPC actually taught by Mr PN and Dr.J which they shared that authority is not a given right but one that God gave because of the person's life. We have to always first function in the role before the title can be given and if we are unfaithful the annointing will be taken from us.

Leadership roles comes with responsiblity. A person cannot commit adultery, misappropriate finance, teach people to pray to other Gods and split the church. And yet think that they still have the preceived authority from God. The truth is Annointing and leadership have to be earned and this is only happens when a person walks with God

I just think they Mr PN and Dr.J have walked so far from God and done so much sin that they have become numb to the holy spirit. I am always reminded by the story of Solomon, he was a good king, but as he grew older his heart started to draw away from God into the arms of his many wives and concubines. And as he started to sin, God tore the kingdom away from him.

This story so much mirrors what we have now, I believe everything that happens, happens for a reason and God would have allowed it because He needed to preserve the integrity of the Church. If My PN and Dr.J is trying to mislead the people in H.I.M , i just don't think it is going to work.

People in power seems to think that its a given right to them and this authority never be taken away no matter what they do. True the bible days we should always obey our leaders, but let me paraphase one of Mr PN fav quote, we should always obey the leader's, "In the lord" not apart from it. Thus we have to be careful, we do not follow unrighteous leader

What God gives, he can take and if we fight against the will of God, we will surely fail.

I do not fully know Mr PN and Dr.J intention but all i can say is their hope of restoring their position and trying to get back the Hope church internationally has more to do about pride, money and power, rather than any other reason.

Should I continue with the video

2009-07-17T08:30:00.000-07:00

I had initially intended to let the matter since HGI came out to form HIM and not pursue the matter. But with Mr PN trying to hoodwinked people and telling half-truth.

I have every intention to finish off the Video presentation of the evidence regarding his misuse of power, adultery, finance and also idolatory issue.

The video was in Thai and its not easy to finish translating. But if Mr PN intends to take his issue international. I would be more than happy to provide video evidence.

I will not allow him to smear our HIM leaders name., if Mr PN has the guts to do what he does.. then he should stand in front of ALL the HIM members and answer our questions.

If he is innocent why hide behind and get his lackey to do his dirty work and go behind the scene to get people ???

Where is PN ??

PN's Letter on HGI's SPLIT

2009-07-16T09:58:00.000-07:00

Yes after much searching.. i finally found the PN's Blog.. dated 1st July 2009

Below is the Blog from Ps PN regarding HGI Leaders's decision to split from Hope

http://wehopefamily.blogspot.com/

I have added my own comments in red... just for dramatic effect...

"At this stage, you may not be able to sense any difference"

"At this stage, you may not be able to sense any difference in the church you attend today, as the departure of the former HGI churches took place only a few months ago; however you will witness a huge difference in the future.( Yes true... we will see a difference.. One whose leader have missued church finance to finance Politics which was illegal in Thailand. And the leader have a mistress ... mmmmmm..... of course we will see the difference ) And the future is so crucial for us because we journey to one destination which is to be part of the Bride of Christ" ( I think Jesus would want a bride that is clean, not one who is unrepentant and unwilling to be restored properly, I think Jesus would not one a bride who preach double std - one for Himself another for the church )

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

I am writing this letter to you in response to several inquiries I have received from
Hope of God International (HGI) church members worldwide regarding the status of
the ex-HGI churches. Though the leaders of former HGI churches – now renamed as
Hope International Ministries (HIM), have clearly stated their separation from HGI
leadership via their website, they have probably not communicated much to you of
what has been going on. As they also will not have explained to you in detail about
the procedures that HIM leaders used in their decision to separate from HGI, I will
therefore take this opportunity to narrate some facts for your thoroughunderstanding
and perusal. ( Ok please note.. fact ... Everything here in his blog only tells stories.. but no physical evidence... Watch Rubina video of the serious allegation.. Prepared with evidence DOCUMENTS... and all.. here PN just talk )

From the beginning of Rubina’s serious allegations and consequent scandal that broke ( SEE , Nothing was ever mention here what the allegation was, if they are innocent why not stand before ALL THE HOPE PEOPLE instead of splitting the church ) in late October 2008, a series of interactions took place between Pastor Simon andmyself. Later on, following disagreement over how to deal with controversial issues atthat time, meetings were held in late December, 2008, between Pastor Simon, theAdvisor and other leaders in Bangkok. ( Here again vague, read my blog, with specific timeline and evidence. of proof)

After this Bangkok meeting, when issues remained in disagreement, the Advisor asked Pastor Simon and the RMCs to meet and discuss the unresolved issues, which led to another meeting that was scheduled forearly January, 2009 between the RMCs, the Advisor, myself and other leaders inBangkok.

However, instead of following the biblical approach to disagreement resolution, as
reiterated by the Advisor, in accord with Acts 15, in which the Bible and its principles
are upheld as the referee and if no agreement can be reached, there are further talks
until the leading of the Lord is clear and a consensus reached, the RMCs chose to act
otherwise. The ex HGI leaders sent a letter to the Advisor on the 24th December 2008
indicating their unilateral decision on the disputed matters. ( Let me put this clearly - PN used Simon's first letter to stat HGI support of his action. But Ps Simon came out another letter. PN was the one WHO SPLIT HOPE ... you can watch the Video of his 1st sermon in I think one of the Hope worship centre, where he told people he was going to split the church... He TOOK the tithes for himself and never gave it to Hope FOundation who rightfully was the one to hold the money. - Now who is rebellious ?? )

This letter came in spite of the fact that the Advisor had invited both Pastor Simon and the RMCs to come and discuss the unresolved matters in person in January. Anyway, regardless of their decision, the Advisor still invited them for a meeting in mid January. ( PN asked us to choose side... Mr PN or Rubina.. HGI to avoid any infighting decided to come out so that they will not involve with the reglious politics happening Thailand)

When this discussion took place on the unresolved issues, they insisted on upholding
their own previously agreed to, so called, “HGI Constitution,” or code of ethics as
their ground rules. These discussions thus rested on different platforms, resulting in
no unanimity. Even so, the Advisor (I BELIEVE Advisor is Dr.J )asked them to come back for further discussion so that everyone concerned could contemplate more on what a biblically-principledsolution should be, so that we could remain in unity and peace and proceed on.

The ex HGI leaders did not propose any further talks, but chose to write letters to each of the leaders in Bangkok. They wrote a letter to myself, removing me from my
responsibility as the President of HGI. A similar letter was sent to Pastor Somthob,
suspending his responsibility until the arbitrarily set up investigation committee
finished its investigation of scandals on financial matters. A letter was written to the
Advisor, indicating their arbitrary removal from his apostolic leadership. They did not
agree with the Advisor’s biblical standpoint on various matters. Even though they
could not find any biblically-principled fault in him, they used excuses to disqualify
the Advisor as their spiritual covering. ( Evidence ??? mmmm... Was PN so blinded... ohh.. yes.. Advisor was the brother-in-law.... how conincidental... Evidence was put in plain sight by Rubina... with FULL VIDEO disclosure... need more ... evidence... what other evidence... ??)

Their decision was made in spite of a reminder message from the Advisor that a spiritual bond can be compared to that of a natural family in relationship. ( This seems to be Mr PN and Dr J's fav line... BUT... who should we obey ?? God.. or them...I somehow seem to remember... that we were told to always obey God... esp if the Natural have broken God's law. )

Though children may want to deny their natural parents, reality speaks otherwise. The relationship cannot be cancelled as they wish. Their parents are still their parents regardless of the parents’ presence or absence from the children. ( My Spiritual parent is God... mmmm... so this relationship cannot be broken... but... I am not Dr.J or Mr PN's children.. thank God...)

All HGI leaders are well aware that Hope of God Movement came into existence due
to the call of God on the ministry of the apostle. Hope of God movement therefore
believes in the spiritual covering of the apostle ( Only if the apostle is still an apostle, even apostle can be disqualified if they sin against God - This apostle separate from his wife, he took church money to fund his ambitions and ask people to pray to idols... mmmm) , and that as long as he still avails himself to the movement ( ahhh.. no mention of lifestyle.. apparently now its leadership based on availability .. what happen to holiness ?? - Please note Dr.J have not been atending since he left Hope to pursue his other interest... ) , we should be willing to remain under his covering, andmeanwhile be willing to submit to him. The ex HGI RMCs refuse to do so, however,and have arbitrarily declared their autonomy from the Advisor’s spiritual covering. ( Notice again... leadership based on seniority not holiness.. that is why the RMC's left... )

It has been a disheartening experience for me to see what has happened to the
building up of our former HGI churches, into which the Advisor and outstanding
leaders at Hope of Bangkok have poured their lives. It cannot be denied that Hope of
God movement came into existence from a vision given to a person who was obedient
to His call and served the Lord with His anointing as an apostle. The unilateral
decision by the RMCs has caused disunity in Hope family. As God promises his
blessings through unity, I think the ex HGI leaders have done a disservice to their
members because they have eroded some essential principles of the Kingdom of God,
which are submission to authority and unity. ( Personally I think the Ex HGI leaders did the right thing.. I will definitely leave HGI if they had followed leader's who just about broke every covenant of God's commandment. - Worship idol, Misuse of Church finance, Committed adultery, Lied about the situation, )

As you may have seen on the website of Hope International Ministries (HIM), the ex
HGI RMCs and Ps Simon have started a new movement that has nothing to do with
HGI. They have appointed leaders themselves with neither the consent nor blessing of their spiritual covering. This situation, alone, would be similar to that of a care leader resigning from the covering of his/her unit leader owing to a disagreement with the unit leader, and then re-appointing himself/herself to be the new unit leader, or else choosing another care leader to that position before setting up their own new
fellowship. But, wouldn’t such actions possibly amount to “rebellion?” ( Notice all this talk about rebellion..well i can say is yes !! we are rebellious, rebellious against unholiness and the unrighteous. Woudl that be wrong ?? If my leader sins and do not repent.. i would of course leave.. I do not want to be cursed by God )

Just imagine ifHGI’s ex-leaders some time afterward let their care leaders do likewise. Then asleaders in oversight, they would be unable to implement biblical spiritual authoritywith a good conscience and their teachings on divine authority would furthermore befutile. ( Divine authority ??? _ Divine authority is not given it has to be earned... somehow Mr PN seems to think he is MR annointed who have authority to do anything without consequence.. breaking God's law and splitting the church... mmm.... )

I want to stress my standpoint in serving the Lord, which is that I firmly believe in the
principle of spiritual authority, the delegation of spiritual authority, divineappointment and spiritual covering. I joined Hope movement due to the teaching andthe leading of apostolic ministry. I think that being submissive to apostolic ministry isessential in order to receive anointing and blessing from the Lord, and I have pledged myself to do so. ( I am sure everyone knows. that authority is earned by your life. Appointment given by God can be taken away if the person sins and do not repent... ) Eg.. Saul in the bible, Solomon whose Sin caused God to tear the kigndom away from his Son. Need i say more. What bible Mr PN is reading ?? HIT ( Hope International Translation ??? )

I want to remind you of the fact that when two lines depart from the same point, the
gap between those two lines may not be noticeable at the beginning, but the further
the lines go, the gap between them becomes wider and wider. At this stage, you may
not be able to sense any difference in the church you attend today, as the departure of
the former HGI churches took place only a few months ago; however you will witness
a huge difference in the future. And the future is so crucial for us because we journey
to one destination which is to be part of the Bride of Christ, which is a church that
grows unto the maturity of Christ, abiding by all the precepts of the Lord. Since HGI
and HIM disagree on theological matters and practices, if there is no turnaround in the position of HIM, we cannot pretentiously say that our churches are the same and that our destiny will merge eventually. ( HIM believes in righteousness, integrity and holiness.. i think in the long we will see the difference... of course... Mr PN believe in " I-can-do-anything and I-am-above God's law..... there is definitely a big ideological difference... Unfortunately if i have the opportunity i will let PN know.. i do not believe in Communisim and do not like to be ruled by a dictator with no regard for God's law)

I have grave concerns for your spiritual lives because I truly believe that the Church
of Jesus Christ needs to strictly uphold the principle of divine order and authority
because without this core principle and its practices, the Church will be no different to
other institutions in this fallen world and our effort to build His Kingdom will be in
vain. ( Aiiiiii... need i say more... all talk about divine... submission .. where is God ??? So sad... )

Even though I am sad to accept their decision, I will not be disheartened. I want you
to be clear that if you want to join the church that belongs to Hope of God family,
under the spiritual covering of the founder, you need to come out to join the HGI
churches that I and HGI believers all over the world will start in the near future
.

I therefore remain the leader of HGI, which includes Hope of Bangkok Church and
Hope churches in 70 provinces (out of 76 provinces) in Thailand and a few churches
outside of Thailand. We will not be discouraged by the adversity of the past, but will
continue on to serve the Lord with the mission to “Build strong biblical people, tobuild strong biblical churches in Bangkok, Thailand and the rest of the world.” WOW..... finally biblical... mmmm... I can tell everyone though.. in the HGI of Mr PN.. once you are a leader .. you can use the church money as you please, find another mistress, pray to idol to advance God's kingdom, have total disregard for the country's law as long as you think you are doing right.

In short HGI leader's motto : " Leadership has its privleges and no responsibility."

I am not perfect ( mmm.. aren't we all... i wonder why he did not mention what he did ) and I am fully aware that I need the amazing grace of God to help meto be a better person in Christ. However, I will not be bogged down by the devil with
discouragement and sorrow for the past but will continue on afresh in Him. My
aspiration to be transformed into the likeness of Christ never ceases. My pledge to
teach the Word of God, to live up to it and to serve Him grows even more in spite of
the disastrous events that we have encountered. I therefore want to reassure you of mycommitment to God and to you all to carry on the responsibility God has called me to,to lead the churches in Hope family unto the maturity of Christ.

If anyone of you want to discuss or enquire about further insights, please feel free to
contact me by email at hgio@wehopefamily.net. ( Wow ... recruitment drive ... i am sure someone who loves leadership position and no responsibility will love to join..)

If you want me to come to see you in person, please also let me know. I will try to plan my overseas itinerary to visit youwhenever I can. You are also welcome to meet with me when you plan to visit
Thailand.

Your brother in Christ ( ??? Bro in christ ??? ) ,

PN

Message from PN hope website

2009-07-16T08:36:00.000-07:00

As we can see PN is trying to get our international church back again.. I wonder what is his ulterior motive.

They have website called welovepn... mmmm.. when has church become about a person ??? Idolatory ?

DrJ used to say sometimes people maybe sincere but they are often sincerely wrong. I hope the people who attend PN church know what type of leader he is.

No adulterer should ever lead a church without first being properly restored, so i do not understand how the people in Thailand would be so blinded.

And i will never stand idly by while MR PN try to destroy our HIM movement spreading lies upon lies.

I had wanted the matter to rest.. but obviously Mr. PN still misses our cash .... to support his and his brother-in-law lifestyle.

Been trying to find PN's english blog... obviously its not popular enough to be found online. If i do find... i will post it here. If anyone .. please let me know.

I dont want Mr. PN to lie to our members . And drag people away thinking that we did wrong.

So... the hornet nest is stirred... but Mr PN do not want it to rest... so... there some fights I will take up.. and this is one of them. The international leaders are good leaders and I will not standby while he says things about them...

If its the truth Mr PN wants then truth Mr PN will get.

The Return of Hope Church

In a short time the people of Hope will praise God, as he brings the international family back together. God is faithful, he will leave his sheep scattered, whether in the Americas, in Australia, in Europe, in Africa, and in Asia. Pastor NP and team stand ready for the task.

I thought the matter has rest

2009-07-16T04:56:00.000-07:00

Some might be wondering why I have been quiet for so long.. I had intially wanted the matter to rest And move on.

But from what i gather now from various friends in Thailand. PN have been trying to hoodwinked people to split from HIM and also trying to defame our leaders.

So its not we do not want to move on, but maybe PN finds the HGI money to much of an enticement to not do something to get some membership. Because all along before this thing blew up. HGI contributed a huge portion to PN and Dr.J, as you know international money is much stronger.

So looks like i woudl have to keep updating thigns in Thailand and around the world so that PN will not succeed in tearing HIM.

God bless

Ps PN trying to split Hope International

2009-07-16T04:41:00.000-07:00

Below was a blog taken from HIM post. As i have expressed earlier, Ps PN have been trying to split the church internationally and trying to get people to align with him

I think it has become clear that PS PN is no longer a follower of Christ. Christ said before in the last days, many will call on him and in his names drive out demons but Christ say He does not know this people.

PN has officially done what no christians or bible-believing christian should Do. He say one thing and does another. I would not be surprised he is still in relationship with the other woman. Since this issue was never resolved properly.

How in the world - Can he still preach ???? Whatever he is doing now is no longer blibical. I am sure that is why God is tearing away the people from him. All the talks is power, authority and obedience without question

It sounds so much like a power hungry person. It scarily reminds me of Hitler, Napolean and Lenin. People who demands absolute loyalty without question, regardless of obedience to Bible.
I wonder do we obey Jesus or do we obey Ps PN ???

I really hope all Hope International People and those in Thailand be aware of the schemes of PN.

Personally, when a person is drunk with power, they often do not want to give it up so easily. Secondly i think its the money. With the split PN woudl have lost quite alot of revenue especially from the International churches to fund Dr J political ambition and his Salary.

Please be aware of his intentions and pass this on to people so they are well aware.

Below is from HIM blog :

Dear Members of HIM,

In late June, PN wrote to a number of people in HIM, alleging that leaders of HIM had left HGI in a wrong manner, and called on HIM members to re-join him. A blogspot in English reiterated the same message. PN has given incomplete information and also misrepresented the facts.

We parted with the former leadership of HGI for a few reasons:

DJ and PN had disqualified themselves as elders according to biblical standards. PN was involved in adultery for an extended period of time. Efforts to have him fully restored were opposed by DJ. DJ separated from his wife, and encouraged various church leaders and members to participate in religious ceremonies for his political purposes, causing other believers to stumble;
They were not accountable to other leaders and members, especially in the area of finance. There are still ongoing investigations by the Hope of Thai People Foundation, which is the legal entity of the original Hope of Bangkok, regarding the misuse of funds involving these leaders;
They maintained that they had acted biblically when their actions showed otherwise.

The procedure of our parting may have surprised PN but we have good grounds to do so because:

DJ himself asked us to choose whether we wanted to continue with him as the apostolic covering, although he tried to backtrack later;
PN was removed as president and Somthob suspended as vice-president according to the procedure spelt out by HGI Licensing Policy that they had approved themselves together with other HGI elders. The reason was because PN no longer met the biblical criteria to be an elder.

PN also alleged that the present HIM leadership is improperly appointed. Actually the HIM leadership is no different from the old HGI leadership minus the top leaders who disqualified themselves. I was the remaining elder that was untainted in the whole saga following the allegations by Rubina about leadership improprieties in Bangkok in October 2008. Together with the then RMCs in HGI, I took the needed leadership in HGI. We then decided to break from the past and revamped organisationally by replacing HGI with HIM.

We are concerned that the true motive of PN is to split the existing HIM churches so that he can regain some members. We need to be aware of what has happened in Thailand since October 2008. After Rubina highlighted the misuse of funds in the Hope of Bangkok/Hope of Thai People Foundation, PN had little platform for ministry. On one occasion he was given a platform at the Windsor Hotel, Bangkok during which he managed to convince a portion of the daughter churches to come out of the Hope of Thai People Foundation umbrella.

He has continued this strategy in various forms all over Thailand. What used to be a unified family of Hope churches throughout Thailand is now fragmented into five or more groups. The church landscape in Thailand is a pitiful tragedy with brothers in Hope or ex-Hope churches fighting other brothers who used to worship together in the same church. In the midst of all this happenings, hundreds and perhaps thousands have stopped coming to church or moved to other (non-Hope) churches.

What PN is doing sounds too familiar for us not to raise the warning that he may very well attempt to do internationally what he did in Thailand. It is unusual for an outside party to write directly to you about your leaders bypassing and not even informing us. Regardless of his arguments, it seems obvious to us that he wants to have a direct communication with HIM members and very likely influence members or even leaders to leave existing HIM churches to join him.

If you have further questions, please talk to your pastor directly. Alternatively, you can write to our central HIM office through byhim.office@gmail.com. We have set up this new email address to address any issues and concerns you may have about PN’s actions.

Let us remain united together in HIM, and continue on the new chapter which we have established and are forging ahead to continue to plant churches and fulfil God’s Great Commission in our localities, countries and all over the world.

In Christ,
Pastor Simon Eng

HIM Blog established

2009-07-16T04:28:00.000-07:00

Dear friends of Hope and Ex-hope,

As you might have heard, Hope International Ministries previously HGI have now established a blog to update us of future Movement update.

http://byhim.wordpress.com/

This is now the official HIM blog.. and the news on there will be our official news.

I will put up a link so anyone interested to find out more can go to the site.

God bless to all

HIM

2009-04-16T04:27:00.000-07:00

HIM - Hope International Ministries

This is our new name. I believe it is official

The art of balance

2009-04-15T07:54:00.000-07:00

One of the most important decision we have to make in our life is our decision to follow Christ, and after that decision is make I think the second most important decision we have to make is to which House of the Lord should i commit my life to because this can either break or help you to grow.

Christianity is like a marathon, and if you join the wrong program and did exercise meant for sprinter more often than not you will find yourself out of breath when the distance gets longer. In my time in Hope, i call this the 7 year itch. Most of my friends i knew in my 1st year in hope, left by the 7th year, those who stayed become either Pastor or just attending member. Most that left often have only 2 main reason - burnt out, personal issue ( BGR .. mainly)

I believe Hope vision was founded on good principles but often times in our enthusiasm our application becomes haphazard. One key area that sometimes confound me is that we teach our sheep that Christianity is a marathon not a race, but yet we train them like we are in a sprint.

We teach this in our lessons..

1-3 months - Train them to come regularly ( teach 18 lessons)
3-6 months - Baptise them, filled with Holy spirit, and teach them follow-up
6-9 mths - Regular follow upper and be involve in CG and help out
9-12 mths - CGL if possible

Our game plan was to in essence train them up to be leaders so that we can build the church up faster and win more souls...

The problem though is that how many will rise up to UL, CL or even SDL level ? What happen if this person's calling is not in leadership but in some other area of ministry ? So if they are suppose to reach to this level that fast would they have tired out ???

The problem though with this method is that we forego the one key fact Chracter building. Skills can be trained, we can teach people to be workers and be involve in church, one thing we cannot teach is chracter, this we have to allow the spirit to touch the person. That i think was the main problem, we rise leaders up because they were willing workers and submissive but we did not consider the character aspect. That is why all these allegations and improper behaviour by our previous leaders was brought to light and split the church

Well maybe i can give another idea.

I believe that christianity is a marathon therefore we should train like we are in a marathon, not like a sprint. Meaning we should create an atmosphere where people are given opportunity to serve, in ministry which they felt called. Eg. Worship ministry. A great paradox often exist, we want spiritual people to be up on stage, but in Hope, to be spiritual means also you must show by your committment to JDMM, SDMM, leading CG, and taking on department roles. So here is the paradox, if you work, 8-5 you come home... if you want to join music team : you have to shepherd, be shepherd, train your music, join meetings and be involve in other departments.
No wonder people get burned out.

I think one way is to understand our core, personally Shepherding is the main core, and we should work around this. Eg. I think as long as someone is a responsible shepherd, he should be allowed to develop in his calling either in Pastoral work, Worship, intercessory. We can also create cell around the ministry. Thus in essence, leadership training should be for those who are interested in this area of ministry.

I think the key is to allow people room to breath and explore, give a little push to the people under you, but ultimately allow God to help them. Its easier when the person wants to do it then they are compelled to do it.

Let us change for the better and provide a better ministry environment and greater balance in our holistic life.

Dr J to reconcile ?

2009-04-13T01:00:00.000-07:00

I still hear in the background that Dr.J is hoping still for a reconciliation with HGI and have asked HGI not to touch Thailand Hope churches which are neutral.

I am not too sure what would be our stand, but i think we should not allow Dr.J to join back HGI and influence the HGI movement.

Also HGI have changed our name to HIM. I think it will take another 6 more months to finally resolve and iron out HIM movement goals, plans and future.

Thats all for now...

New Hope

2009-03-30T08:06:00.000-07:00

Yes, its been awhile, since i logged on. Been waiting patiently to see the developments happening in our Church, all i can say now is that it does seems more neutral parties are joining HGI.

There is conflicting reports that Ps PN has managed to get most Hope Church outside bangkok to join them . Well its still very political in Thailand and its really sad that what once used to be a great movement, where we preached against being political and being God focused has turned to this

HGI will take sometime to help restablish the HGI churches and do some changes, I do know though that PN is starting their own international Church planting, sure will be interesting

I think most churches now know the split, but lets see what happens from here....

I really really hope that after this next 6 months HGI will do something different, though Hope had alot of great principles, i do know many of the methods are just not sustainable in the long run and maybe that is why people burn out instead of burn in. Personally i do hope we can cut out some things which Hope use to do and adopt some methods which has proved successful in other church. Keep principle the same but we can try different method

For one... I think Musically and service wise we can improve. I do think the previous hope structure does not allow musicians to develop. Because, to go on stage you need to be CGL or UL or be involved in ministry. But because, we have so many meetings- SDMM, DMM, and other ministry like shepherding and leading CG... often time you will find those who want to pursue worship ministry have so many other work to do that often time people cannot be fully released to their potential.

I think also it would be good to allow people to breathe, sometimes in our old structure, because of the 1 million goal we push people to go on missions. But to me i think, God created us all different and we all will grow at different speed, have different passion and potential. I do think therefore we need to keep a good balance between qantity growth and quality growth

Since we no longer have to do 1 million churches by 2015, so we set ourselves a more realistic goal. We should have a HGI website link all our churches, set up a main and central office. Provide centralise training and establish a bible school for those who wants to be trained to go on missions. so instead of sending 2 to 3 people we can send 20-30 at the same time.

Better transparency.. since this split was for one due to money.. i think to move on... we need to establish better accountablility over finance and make sure that the same do not happen both in mrico and marco level.

So far i think, no hope churches have ever announce their P&L on line or on their website. And there was previously no report on our overall movement finance.

I think taking a leaf from Singapore, i do know and heard that recently some churches and religious organisation was audited. I do know some of the mega church put their P&L online and have allowed their books to be transparent.

Principle vs Method

2009-03-13T20:50:00.000-07:00

When a revival happens, it is often started by one person who have received something from God. Be it Martin Luther or The Wesley brothers. Each is responsible to add back what was lost to bring the church back to where God will come eventually for His glorious church .

In my time as a christian, we have gone from Singing Hymns with Church organ to Praise and worship and a full band, from a non-tongue speaking person to one filled with the Holy spirit and moving in the gift of God. From a congregational church to a cell-church.

As we come closer to the end times, i see God adding more facets to the church and it is important that we must allow the Holy spirit to lead us in this new area of our church life. We are called a movement because it is always moving and changing.

But it is important to also always realise that we must not let methods become principle and principle become the law. If things doesn't work, we need to change, we need to learn also from other churches and see what God is doing around the world.

Many of my friends who have left the church, often have one common theme, we were always too close up and often we seldom or never invite other preachers. We often think we have the best method, best style and best structure. As the world and church movement change, where once we were at the forefront of church growth have not been lagged far behind, where church have discovered more arenas God wants to add back, we were still only talking about world mission.

In fact, when i first joined Hope, it was a revolutionary thinking, Global church planting, but other churches have caught on Global missions, in fact many big churches are already doing just that, my friend's church where once was a local church have started to church plant as well

In the meantime, other churches have also added new areas into the Church. Churches have started writing songs, producing CDs, going on TV actively engaging the community through business and culture. God has always wanted us to be the head and not the tail. God wants us to claim back what belongs to God.

It would be good that we start to explore other area of God's gift- because of how we use to structure alot of our ministry. People whose gifts centres on teaching, missions and pastoral, often will prosper in the church, But not many on other areas like worship, prophetic and signs and wonders, etc.

Keep what works and throw our what doesn't, reduce turnover and build on momentum.

Serving God is not only just doin church ministry work - we can all serve God in our family, career, our relationship and community work. Allow yourself to explore because in truth not everyone is called to become missionary or church pastor if so, who is going to be the businessman, who is going to be the musican and worshpi leader who is going to play supporter .

God has designed and created each and everyone different, take this time to discover your gift.

Keep the principles as it is unchanging but methods will

Now what you might say is principle and method

For eg. God wants us to win the world - Matt 18 ( in the bible ). that is principle. Going to the streets to evangelise, become a missionary and go to another country. That is method, because it answers the How question. You can also win the world by starting a school and be a businessman and use the money you make to help the poor and share christ. You can produce an album and share your songs to the world. These are methods that can be used to help spread the word.

Because as we are all created with different gifts. if we only use one formula, then we will leave out those who are gifted in other areas.

God wants us to build churches - yes but how we do it is method.
You can send a team, you can help a struggling church, you can send a big team to one place, or send multiple teams its really up to you and these are methods.

I really hope as we move on... we will transform ourselves and be a better church

Great Hope Website

2009-03-09T05:59:00.000-07:00

Been visiting some of the websites of the HGI churches, many of the websites was really well-done. It would be good though to have a main HGI website and links to all our HGI churches, it does help build a sense of solidarity.

I like Hope Singapore website, the sermon downloads are a good idea. I do wish we can have more of these from different HGI churches, would be good.

World Missions

2009-03-09T05:52:00.000-07:00

Recently I heard from friends that PN is starting to do church planting. Of course that being our Hope "DNA" would undoubtedly be normal. I think if i am not wrong they are planning to do global missions as well, and restart the international churches under PN, how we shall link up i wonder. I am in no doubt if they were to start, it would be called Hope as well.

I am afraid then other Hope churches not with PN will be linked by association. If we keep the same logo, banner and mission statement. But I know HGI will do a good job, there have been some changes as well internationally as some pastors will be moving to other appointments in HGI , which is a really good trend.

Where to find facts

2009-02-27T16:02:00.000-08:00

I thought i better give some small summary as i was asked if I have facts to substantiate the issues

I will just summarize here so it can be a one look thing

Please note that some posts like : Future ahead are just questions we need to ask and there is no facts needed. Unless i am reporting a factual issue, i think i could not possibly offer facts on my own opinion on the incident. But where facts are involved, i have highlighted it.

Unless i missed out something. Please let me know

1. idolatory issue and teaching on worship idols

Factsheet

- the teaching is shown in the Video post from Foundation i posted up
- Statements were issued previously by North America churches in Hope regarding the issue ( documents with signatures available from post and also in biblediscuss.com)
- There is a video of the full teaching its in thai and big file so cannot put up ( but foundation have put up the relevant portion)
- 18 page statement ( PN have not been able to defend as of now - he has chosen to remain silent )

2. Finance and money used for Dr.J

- 18 page statement ( PN did not deny) this fact
- Elders meeting minutes which spoke about money transfer ( in post ) and in PDF
- Receipt of money transfer from HGI ( shown in video)
- Ps Somptop one of the account holders ( please note account Hope have a number of accounts and the correct procedure was all money to go to foundation and then the money will be disbursed out according) did not deny about the money being used - ( in the Foundation video - show the meeting when they had a members meet and tell session )
- Video shows also a wife of a former secretary " who ran away" because He knew the moeny issue was illegal and wrong. The wife went on the meet and tell and showed the letter her husband wrote and also begged him to come home ( the man ran away )
- Amount owed is still being finalised, but its going to the courts

3. Adultery issue of PN

- This is fact because it is reported by all Pastors from HGI so it cannot be false : my pastor have mentioned and also top leaders have not denied this happened check with your pastor
- Ps PK has issued a first statement about this
- PK has 2 other letters : one to state his intention and the other i heard ( this is have not seen) is to apologise for being too blunt.

4. Dr Dan or Dr J

Separation from wife
- mentioned in PK letter
- Dr.J's closet aide did not deny the issue

Mobilising of member to help in his election and changing their address so they can support kriengsak
- Ask the gound members in Hope Bangkok
- No one deny this fact, the bangkok regions have worked tirelessly during his campign
- This is an open secret
- Foundation I believe have prove ( ask them if you want to )

Denial of being founder of Hope
- My post have evidence of his old letters
- An article by Charisma magazine
- Apostle of Hope by Carolyn Boyd ( i think out of print )
- There is court transcript ( highlighted in my post ) showing he deny knowledge about being Hope founder

5. HGI going independent

- I am sure this fact i dont have to prove, as its already announced by individual churches
- Letter by Ps Simon ( If you want can ask your leader to show you )
- HGI in all i believe have issued 3 letters ( the whole reason well - go to biblediscuss.com)

6. Some thai churches joined Hope

- Yes there is
- Some thai church pastors have announced to their members
- If you want to confirm can ask people in Nexus Bangkok chruch or your leaders to confirm
- There are a number of churches that joined HGI mainly those who had stayed neutral

7. PN splitting the church
- In video
- Also widely known fact : they already have their own website

8. About PN side always asking people to just submit to authority
- You have to understand thai ( discussion between pro and non-pro PN supporters)
- Church members who listen to the sermons on Sunday
- Their key verse is the last post i put up Obey your leaders.

I think thats about it .... for those asking about fact and evidence. I cannot think of other things i mention that need evidence.

I hope this helps.

A good read

2009-02-27T04:29:00.002-08:00

I am sure Tyson would not mind me posting this short read. Its an interesting comment.

Tyson

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Posts: 2

Obeying your leaders: A short commentary on Hebrews 13:17

Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
~ Hebrews 13:17 (NIV)

Let me start this post by saying that I believe there is such a thing as biblical authority, and that it is healthy for believers to obey their spiritual overseers in the local church. What I want to focus on here is the nature of this obedience.

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary Of Old And New Testament Words, the Greek work translated here as "obey" is peitho. Elsewhere in the Bible, peitho is translated as: to yield, to believe, to be assured, to have confidence in, to trust, and to be persuaded by. The obedience here is the kind that comes from a trusting relationship between human beings.

In contrast, look at the Greek word hupakouo, which is also translated as obey in some parts of the Bible. According to Vine's, hupakouo is used for obedience in the following instances:
(a) to God by everyone and everything in Hebrews 5:9 and 11:8
(b) to Christ by natural elements in Matthew 8:27
(c) to disciples of Christ when they command a mulberry tree to uproot cast itself into the sea in Luke 17:6
(d) to the faith by new believers in Acts 6:7; and to the Gospel in Romans 10:16 and Christian doctrine in Romans 6:17 (as to a form or mold of teaching)
(e) to apostolic injunctions, such as in Philippians 2:12
(f) to Abraham by Sarah, as in 1 Peter 3:6
(g) to parents by children in Ephesians 6:1
(h) to masters by servants in Ephesians 6:5
(i) to sin by ourselves if unaided by God in Romans 6:12
(j) in general as slaves in Romans 6:16

See Vine's online here: http://vines.mike-obrien.net

Hupakouo is not about being persuaded or trusting in someone. No, it is about unquestioning, automatic obedience that comes from domineering authority. It's important to note that nowhere in the list does Vine's apply hupakouo to the obedience that should occur between church members and their spiritual overseers. The vital difference is a trusting relationship that produces a voluntary yielding and submission. Moreover, hupakouo is unquestioning, whereas peitho implies that the person obeying weighs the instruction in his or her mind, then deliberately decides to submit to a fellow human being. (Of course, our relationship with God is also trusting like a sheep with its good shepherd or between close friends, but our obedience occurs because He is our Lord and Master.)

What does this imply for obedience to spiritual overseers in the church? It means that we should consider the results of their faith. Hebrews 13:7 says, "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith." We should know their lives and their conduct. This should produce a natural trust. If you obey your boss at work, it's likely hupakouo (though you're lucky if it's peitho). Or if you get stopped by the police, you're not supposed to care about how the officer manages his or her affairs at home. Peitho is different. We know our leaders and trust them.

Moreover, we consider what they say. Like the Bereans in Acts 17, we look in the Bible to see what they say is true or not. Otherwise, if we are not to consider what they say, how can we "be persuaded by" them as peitho implies?

I'm interested to hear the thoughts of people who have considered this question. What is the nature of obedience in Hebrews 13:17?

Future ahead

2009-02-25T05:37:00.000-08:00

I notice a lot of comments have been added to the blog, which is good because are asking questions. The one major aim of this blog is to give everyone a chance to read what is going on. Alot of the stuff are from the Hope Discussion forum which unfortunately is mostly in thai, the letters, the comments and general things are already available but only from the Thai mother church.

I suppose, one of the biggest reason is I wanted to give people evidence and information, and let people make their own decision. Alot of times things comes out in drips and draps and people often get wrong information along the way because it is just hearsay.

You will hear for example in the place where i am , HGI has choosen to leave Foundation and that PN and Dr.J have been stepped down, but not much details are provided, its always the less you know the better unless of course you are a leader. People only hear the conclusion but they do not know how the conclusion came about, so this what the blog is for.

Actually not many people will know the reason why HGI choose to stay independent and not join either PN nor foundation ?PN of course I understand, as for Foundation side what would be the reason ? the official reason was foundation did not follow standard procedure, but yet on foundation side they said they did. I do not think the leaders in Thailand would have followed foundation if what they did was wrong. Maybe the execution was not ideal but keeping issues of such magnitude would be tantamount to a grave sin. - Remember the catholic church who choose to keep Priest's indiscretion with boys a secret ? In the end the church was made to pay billions of dollars. Financial mismangment, idolatory and adultery were no small issues.

In fact, i know of people in HGI who would have preferred to stay with foundation. Would they actually start another Hope Church under foundation ? I dont know. Because now its a three-way split. PN Church, Foundation and HGI.

There are many other things to also consider for those who initially joined Hope because of the vision. Ok i must be the first to admit, sometimes it does feel weird when you go to Bangkok and you meet friends who used to be in the same Hope family now in different family.

My aim besides providing already available information from Thailand is to give people the information to make sound judgment.

In fact beyond the split there will be alot of tough questions to deal with

Eg. Is the 1 million 2015 still the same ? Will we be using the same V&P and mission statment ?
The name Hope of God is also a registered name so we might have to change name or Logo, we cannot be using the same as PN it will certainly cause confusion. It used to be a Theocracy where Bangkok was the ultimate elders, but without them how will we run ? Is it like Assembly of God style rotational or the same Hope Style ? What about the finance ?

One of the main reason for the split was because previously nobody ask question, if something did not seem right, we will sit down and hope the the problem will go away. This church belongs as much to the leaders as to the members who contribute our time, our effort and also our finances. Maybe that is why so many of us are so passionate and work up over this split. Trust me when you spend all your available time Mon-Sun .. going for shepherding, meeting, CG, outreach and give the best part of your life to build the church. People tend to be more interested to know they have not been led down the wrong path, that we are actually walking the talk, not just empty promises we cannot keep. Of course the opposite would have been true, if Hope is just your typical church where only the lay pastors serve and most members attend church and do nothing of course things might have been different. This blog might not happen at all.

In all whatever path we will all take in the future, I think the key thing is this - Every Church and movment have their own unique flavour, each have a role in overall body of Christ's church. Going independent is like taking the same ingredient of teachings, philosophy and structure but now with the ability to add a new twist along the way, i do believe every member who decide to stay with HGI can contribute in this rebuilding project. Its not easy but it can be done

So i shall leave you with the words of Dr.J - "One man can change the world"

PS - I am still working on the video and should be ready end of this week. The video by foundation is very detailed and covers all the grounds, i otherwise would have find hard to cover.

HGI Letter ?

2009-02-22T04:57:00.000-08:00

Well, I suppose since many people are on the blog, I believe the new statement have been send out by HGI

I am not sure if anyone has the statement in writing though, personally i do think that the statment should be made official and handed to people so that we can for once cut off ties with PN and Dr.J rather than leave doubt about our link

Someone mentioned that HGI will have a website up but I am still waiting.

In summary, the letter is

1. HGI have handed the letter of termination to PN and Dr.J both as president and as advisors
2. We will treat Dr.J as a friend only
3. We will be on our own and not join Foundation
4. we will still keep the friendship but that is about it

I think that is the summary if i am wrong please let me know as i dont have the full letter, its not on Bible discuss website. And the announcements are made by word or mouth though

Personally, i hope as leaders of God's church we will be more accountable and to realise that members are as much to the church as the leaders and we need to make everything as transparent as possible so that issues like these will not happen ever again.

Conclusion

I think the main thing is that leaders should stop treating members like children and make sure that members of the church will always be kept informed, Hope failed in the first case because information was not forthcoming and people failed to query, when something did not seem right, no one dare question Dr.J when he suddenly disappeared.

I hope this lesson will make members understand that we are also accountable to God for what happens in our church. Leaders and members alike must be good steward and ensure that we ask if we are not sure and not just take the " leaders know best answer", because if we strip down to the basic, leaders are still human and they are still like all of us, leaders will make mistakes like all of us, leaders are still prone to emotions like of us.

Remember the story of "Animal Farm" - it all started wih a good idea every animal had one common dream, a common desire. But soon corruptions took hold and the dreams soon shattered

So for us all in HGI now, we must always take the lessons from our past and make it a mistake we will not make again, for if we are to win the world first we need to win again the trust of our people that our leaders are honest, God fearing and people of integrity.

Post from Bangkok Knight

2009-02-19T14:20:00.001-08:00

bangkok_knight

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Ps. Rubina's Actions!!

This was some thoughts that I expressed couple of weeks ago when the problems started in church. Thought I would share to the international group. Hope it's not too late!!

There is something I should point out believing that it's not fair for Ps. Rubina if we make judgements of her actions for sending out the 18 page email which is the truth according to her. WHY?

1. Considering Ps. Rubina's family background, education, maturity and her loyalty and sacrifice to the church I believe she tried to talk and other ways possible (as advised in the Bible) but that did not yield any results so came the email which we think was not appropriate. But how do we know if it's appropriate or not since we are not in her position and the legal responsibilities she has as the President of the Foundation.

2. Without the email this news could have circulated to every level of the church as a rumor and could have been labeled as false and people spreading the rumor could have been labeled as traitors to the church. This would have caused even more damage to the church or the people involved and the truth would not have been known.

3. Ps. Rubina sent the email and she took responsibility for it she did not hide and deny it.

4. If church people are to stumble it's not because of The Email
- in the past one year people have left the church not because of the email

- people have resigned from full time staff not because of the email

- and many more things that happened not because of the email

So why are people putting the blame on the Email??

If it is true before anyone was to support or spend offering money for sensitive issues they should have know that their actions will cause people to stumble if done in an inappropriate way. That email is the result of that action/decision. By the way so far I have not heard anyone leaving the church or forsaking God because of the email. But instead it has created awareness and concern for the church of God. What I see is people coming out to protect His church.

5. Lets not loose or shift focus. All this happened not because of the email but because people like you and me feel something is not right here and we need someone in authority to please come out and clarify so that people don't STUMBLE and the church can move in the same direction again. No one hates or wants to destroy anyone all that needs to be done is someone has to take responsibility and clarify things.

6. God has His ways to do things if He wants He can use (humans, emails, nature etc etc....) to make things known and right. So lets not limit Him and have an open heart as to the WAYS AND WHAT He uses in this case.

7. Even if outsiders attack us on this everything that will happen will happen only if God allows. Christians were persecuted and killed during the Romans but it helped to spread Christianity. So lets not panic or speculate about what the email will do to our image and let God be God.

8. If (I’m not saying it is) the email is true what we should be focusing on is how are we going to balance the accounts because end year is approaching and this is clear black and white when it comes to the law of the country. When outsiders look at us they don’t care who has spiritual authority or not all they care is how they can find fault in our system and create problems. So lets not point fingers and use the Bible for the sake of argument because the Bible is a double-edge sword and both sides can use it to support their cause.

If (I’m not saying it is) money is really missing then something must be done SOON if we as members have to help offer back to balance the books "so be it" I am happy with that and I believe everyone would be too because we want to protect the church and the name of God which should be our No. 1 priority. But at the end of the day someone still has to take responsibility and clarify things.

I hope I'm not being biased here and I have not mentioned any names except for Ps. Rubina because I don't think it right to blame her for doing the right thing even though in many people eyes her method was inappropriate or she did not have the authority but we don't know that until we see how God will move in this situation. We all love our church, pastors and everyone that we call brothers and sisters and we all sincerely believe that no one in Hope has any ill intentions towards the church.

No matter what the end result of this situation is weather it was a misunderstanding or the truth or what ever might happen we should look at this as a lesson for us to prepare for the end times coz that’s when it gets worst spiritually, mentally and physically so lets sit tight and pray and wait and see how God moves in this situation.

Recent news

2009-02-19T14:15:00.000-08:00

From a post from riveroflife - it does seem that some Thailand Hope Churches have joined HGI movement rather than join PN or Rubina.

I am still not sure how many joined HGI though. But my friends in Thailand did confirm that there are Hope Churches in Thailand that joined HGI.

Being Godly Followers

2009-02-18T01:53:00.000-08:00

Below is an article from a brother Andrew. I am sure who wouldn't mind me posting his article. Good read.

Thanks for the link.

Being Godly Followers

Generally speaking, we people are more natural followers than leaders.

From the beginning when we enter into this world, we learn to follow our parents. Gradually as we grow up, we enter into school where we learn to follow.

For the men in Singapore, we enter into national service where we are trained to follow. Eventually, we enter into the workforce and again we follow our bosses.

Taking it further, we are consciously or unconsciously subjected to the dictatorship of our government. And you guess it right… We follow again.

Why be a follower

Being a follower is not necessary a bad thing. In fact, being a good follower is important for any system or organisation to function and progress.

In the Bible, scriptures teach us to submit to authorities placed above us as purposed by God. And in the Body of Christ, we are encouraged to obey our leaders and submit to their authority so that their work would be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage for us (c.f. Hebrews 13:17).

Hence, we can conclude that to submit and to follow is not just about loving and respecting your “neighbour”, but it also concerns the advancement of God’s work and purpose through the Body or any system and organisation.

Biblically, unity and cohesiveness leads to godly and optimised performance- His results.

Therefore, understanding and embracing our respective roles and purpose will help us to follow and contribute to the common vision or goal of the Body.

Don’t be a blind follower

Paradoxically, we as Christians are called and destined to be leaders. As we follow God and His word, leadership becomes a responsibility to undertake as we grow in our service to God and people.

But as followers of Christ, we lead by example with a Christ-like life and setting the standard for morality, character, attitude, competence in our field of work and excellence in how we live out God’s will.

However, knowingly or unknowingly, we have become natural “followers” with our “herd” mentality shaped by our environment and not the word of God. This is the go-with-the flow mindset or the go-with-the-majority approach.

Below are some of the wrong reasons of following:

To gain acceptance by fitting in and by not being seen as out of place or deem different
To feel secure with the sense of belonging developed by “going with the flow” or maintaining the status quo
To win love by pursuing the approval and meeting expectations of others
Just plain laziness, ignorance or out of fear in order to avoid hassle, trouble or conflict

Following God first

Personally, following for the wrong reasons is not only unhealthy, but unbiblical. God commands us to love Him with all our hearts, our soul and our MINDS- to know why we do what we do. It may seem safe or the easy-way-out by just following, but eventually it will lead to disastrous consequences.

For certain, this will not produce true leaders in the Kingdom of God. And we can also observe this problem in the corporate world with our government encouraging entrepenuership among Singaporeans.

Therefore, if not careful, we may find ourselves following for all the wrong reasons with God not even in the picture in our obedience. And this is what we usually term as “blind obedience”.

Ultimately, you and I need to know and to be fully aware that we need to follow God first. And that is by obeying His word and walking in His ways first before anything or anyone else.

“We love because he first loved us” ~ 1 John 4:19

Our obedience has to spring from our love-relationship we share with God. And of cos, our following plans and actions has to be undergirded with His love.

Answer to query

2009-02-17T04:02:00.000-08:00

I thought i should give some answer to a number of query

Purpose of the blog

- This blog sole entire purpose is to provide evidence which is already available in thai websites but are not easily understood by general masses. This post is in english to help the english speaking community who wants to know the happening in Hope Bangkok

How long will this blog last ?

- I have thought about this, this is not entirely a blog about the past, but also about the future. As long as we know the facts and the information have been provided and a decision have been made. I am sure many of us will move on, including myself
- I believe HGI will do a good job
- Of course i would love to in future post more great news from HGI and put up great articles by people
- As long as the initial aim of the blog is achieved,i am happy.

Why this was done

- Having been in hope almost 20 years, i have seen and heard all the reasons and principles. But what i find hardest to swallow is so many times we become so diplomatic to sin. I know no one is perfect, but a " a rose by any other name is still a rose". I rather we shoot from the hip, be honest, if i am wrong, then i am wrong.
- I don't like sitting on the fence, have been doing that for too long and in the end you are none the wiser.
- I rather say what i want to say now then clam it all up and keep it locked up, whats the point.

A website dedicated to PN

2009-02-16T03:57:00.001-08:00

Here is a site dedicated to PN by his supporters :

http://www.welovepn.net

Anyway, just to provide some feedback on some reasons why people choose to follow PN.

I have spoken with a number of thai people who decide to join PN, and here are the main reasons that is often mentioned

1. We need to submit to authority and obey the leaders, they know what they are doing

2. Dr.J is doing God's work and we should support him

3. RB and the rest are rebellious and what they did is not right.

Its really sad that many of the people who choose to follow PN do not realise what they are doing. I remember Dr.J used to say sometimes people can be sincere but sincerely wrong, and in this case, i think this phase really sums it all up.

Its of course good to see such undying loyalty to the founder and the leaders but at what cost? If you were to ask the people who support PN about

1. The money ? Was it no.1 legal to do what they did ? Did they know giving money to Dr.J for election is illegal and doing illegal things even if in the name of God is still wrong.

2. What about the leaders life ? How could they preach immediately without restoration after what happen?

3. There was a teaching about idolatory. The example used was i am sure not coincidental, i think an intelligent person can put 2 and 2 together and figure out why this was taught during election period and particularly on this example. I think people are not foolish enough to accept an explanation that its only an example.

I am really very curious as to why people would still support PN and i hope some thai bro or sis could give their reasons. Why would they say RB and the rest are rebels ? When all they did was to bring the truth. Hopefully "riveroflife" can provide some insight.

The bible say if you did nothing wrong. No one can accuse you, for they will heap coals of fire on their own forehead. So if PN leave does it mean he isn't able to answer the questions ?

Following leaders blindly and without questioning their actions is very dangerous. There is always a chance what started out as a wonderful movement could turn into a cult or one where the leader is the pope and can seemly do no wrong.

Maybe all the people missed out something but hopefully we can get some comments from them. Then maybe we will know why they choose this decision

Five Warning Signs of an Unhealthy Church

2009-02-15T00:22:00.000-08:00

Somone posted this link on a post, so i shall put this up :
http://www.cyberscripture.com/warning.htm . Makes for an Interesting read

Five Warning Signs of an Unhealthy Church

By Mike Fehlauer

A familiar voice was on the other end of the line when Mark answered the phone late one evening. "Mark, can we talk? I'm really concerned that our church is becoming...well, it's almost...a cult."

Mark hadn't heard from his friend, Steve, in three years. They both had attended the same charismatic church until Mark's career required him to relocate to another state. Consequently they had lost touch with each other. Now, in desperation, Steve was reaching out to someone outside his closely knit world.

It was clear that Steve's apprehension was the result of personal observations and not just based on church gossip. Up to this point Steve had been careful not to discuss his thoughts with anyone. He was actually afraid to talk about the subject.

Steve was particularly bothered by an attitude of secrecy concerning the church's finances.

"If anyone dares to ask a question about how the money is used, the pastor accuses him of being 'distrustful' or 'disobedient,'" Steve explained. And for the last three years, he added, the pastor's sermons almost always focused on the topic of submission to spiritual authority.

"If anyone leaves the church," Steve told Mark, "the pastors label him 'rebellious,' or they tell us he was offended."

Mark grew more concerned as Steve nervously shared more details. "The pastor also told us that since God brought us to the church, he is our spiritual father, and we should never leave unless God tells him first," Steve said. "He even told us that if we ever left without pastoral permission, we would be vulnerable to Satan's destruction."

When their conversation ended, Mark realized that his friend was trapped in an extremely unhealthy spiritual situation. He urged his friend to set up an appointment with the pastor in order to confront him about his concerns. "You can't subject yourself or your family to that kind of control, Steve," Mark advised.

A week later, Mark talked with Steve again and discovered just how strong the pastor's influence was over this congregation. Steve had apologized to the pastor for talking with an outsider about his problems with the church, and he pledged that he would never talk with Mark again.

Mark has not heard from Steve since.

Deadly Traits of a Controlling Spirit

The scenario I just described is a true story--and it is much more typical than any of us would like to admit. The sad truth is that many churches today struggle with varying degrees of unhealthy control--which can lead to devastating spiritual abuse if not corrected. That abuse has resulted in untold thousands of wounded and disillusioned Christians who believe they've been burned by the one institution in the world that was supposed to help them.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in the local church. The local congregation is sacred, and it is God's idea. All believers should be in fellowship with a local church according to Hebrews 10:24-25. There is a dynamic of God's grace that is only found in a consistent relationship with a healthy local body.

God's intention all along has been for the local church to be healthy, life-giving and Christ-centered. But because He has chosen to use frail, sin-prone individuals to lead His church, there is always the possibility that a local congregation can fall into deception or unhealthy spiritual patterns.

So how do you know whether a church has come under the influence of a controlling spirit? Here are five clear warning signs:

1. Power positioning. There is certainly a place for biblical teaching on spiritual authority. But if a pastor preaches on this subject every Sunday, constantly reminding everyone that he is in charge, you can be sure that trouble is around the corner.

In an unhealthy church, the pastor actually begins to take the place of Jesus in our lives. In Steve's case, he was told that he couldn't leave his church with God's blessing unless the pastor approved the decision. The implication was that unless he received pastoral permission, God would not bless him. Controlling spiritual leaders use this kind of reasoning to manipulate people.

We must understand the process a church goes through to reach this point of deception. Because pastors have no way to measure their success except through church attendance, they may become disappointed if people leave their church. If they are insecure, they may actually develop a doctrine in order to stop people from leaving. They may preach sermons about unconditional loyalty, using the biblical stories of David and Jonathan, or Elisha and Elijah.

By using examples like this, the leader can actually gain "biblical" grounds to control even the personal areas of his parishioners. A controlling leader may also attempt to instill a sense of obligation by reminding his congregation of everything he has done for them.

This kind of preaching causes church members to seek a position of favor with the pastor rather than a proper desire to "please God and not man" (see Acts 5:29). Jesus also condemned such man-pleasing when he told the Pharisees: "'I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me...How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?'" (John 5:43-44, NKJV).

When we pursue the honor of men, we do so at the expense of our relationship with Him. Gradually men will take the place of God in our lives. An unhealthy soul tie is created, and our sense of confidence is determined by our standing with those in leadership. This kind of control will destroy people spiritually!

A healthy church will not allow genuine pastoral concern to cross the line into manipulation or control. A true shepherd will use his influence to draw church members into a closer relationship with Jesus, who is the only "head of the church" (Eph. 5:23). A true shepherd realizes that the people in his congregation don't belong to him--they are God's flock.

2. An atmosphere of secrecy. When a church member surrenders to a system of control, the leader gives limited information to each individual, carefully monitoring each relationship. As a result, each member is only able to relate to other members based on the information he receives from the leader.

This way, if the pastor or church staff determines that one of the members has become a "threat," they have a strategy in place to maintain the control they believe is required. Consequently the church can sever relationships when necessary and keep this process cloaked behind a veil of secrecy.

This is not limited to members of the congregation. I know a pastor who did this with his staff. In casual conversations he would make a comment that would result in one staff member becoming suspicious of another. Or he would say something to cause one staff member to feel superior.

This atmosphere fueled selfish ambition and competition among the staff. Yet it became the pastor's way of maintaining control and ensuring that his staff could never challenge his authority. In time, the assistant pastors discovered what was happening, and they all eventually left.

In an unhealthy congregation, secrecy also may cloak the area of finances. Pastors may make brazen appeals for money, yet they offer no assurance that the finances of the church are handled with accountability and integrity.

I have actually heard pastors tell their congregations that they don't make the financial decisions of the church a public matter because "the congregation doesn't have the spiritual insight or maturity to understand the dynamics of church finances." Have you heard this line of reasoning before?

Some pastors actually preach: "It doesn't matter what we do with your money. Your responsibility is simply to give." However, the Bible commands us to be good stewards--and part of good stewardship is making sure that proper systems of accountability are established to handle tithes and offerings.

When we become aware of financial mismanagement, then as stewards we are responsible for where we sow our financial seed. I can't imagine anyone who continues to give after becoming aware of the misuse of funds. Yet they might still feel compelled to give if their desire for the approval of those in leadership is more important than financial integrity.

3. An elitist attitude. This deadly trait produces an "us and them" mentality. This is the church that believes no one is really preaching the gospel but them. Or at least, no one is preaching it as effectively as they are!

An elitist spirit discourages church members from visiting other churches or receiving counsel from anyone who doesn't attend their church. If anyone visits another church, he is viewed as a dissident.

"Everything you need can be found within the framework of our group," this spirit says, adding, "Everything you need to know, you will receive from the pastor and his teachings." Consequently there is little respect, if any, for other denominations.

A healthy church respects and celebrates the other expressions of Christ's many-membered body. A Jesus-centered church realizes that no one denomination or local church can win a city, regardless of how large it is. Christ-centered leaders, who are clothed with humility, recognize that the small church is as significant as the large church, the Baptists are as vital as the charismatics and every racial group has a place at the Lord's table.

A healthy church will promote other churches in the city, rather than simply promote its own events and agendas all the time. A healthy church will promote spiritual renewal in all churches rather than further the idea that it has some kind of doctrinal superiority. A healthy church will exude the attitude described in Philippians 2:3-4: "Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also the interest of others."

4. Performance emphasis. Opportunities to minister are abundant in most churches. Yet in a controlling church, these areas of ministry are no longer opportunities to serve. They become necessary in order to prove one's commitment to the organization. Whether it's faithful attendance to worship services or working in some department, loyalty becomes the key.

Obviously church attendance is vital to our spiritual growth. But if we find ourselves attending church so we can win favor with the pastor or to earn his trust, then we have missed the point.

Galatians 2:16 tells us that "a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ." We cannot earn heaven or God's love. The message of God's grace doesn't cancel the need to serve, it just exposes the "why" of our service.

Even though we are instructed to engage in certain disciplines in the Christian life, these disciplines are not a means of gaining God's acceptance. They are meant to be a celebration of His unconditional love and mercy.

5. Fear motivation. When a pastor tells his congregation that those who leave his church or disobey his authority are in danger of God's wrath, you can be sure this man is operating in a spirit of control. He is attempting to use fear as a carnal means of keeping people in his church. The line usually goes like this: "If you leave our church, the blessing of God will be lifted from your life, and you will miss God's will." Another version says, "If you leave our church, you will be in rebellion, and Satan will be free to bring havoc into your life."

Fear is the motivation here--not love. You can be sure that this type of reasoning is not from God. Jesus never motivated men out of fear. In a controlling church, fear is a form of manipulation. What wasn't accomplished through love and servanthood, a controlling church tries to accomplish through manipulation. This is a direct contradiction to 1 John 4:18, which says, "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear."

How should you respond if your church displays one or more of these unhealthy traits? Here's some advice:

· Talk with your pastor about your concerns, keeping in mind that if he is truly motivated by a spirit of control you may encounter some manipulation during the conversation. Stay in a humble attitude rather than getting angry or defensive.

· A controlling church leader will discourage you from speaking with anyone else about your concerns. However the Bible says that "in the multitude of counselors there is safety" (Prov. 11:14). Seek counsel from a mature, objective leader in another church or another mature Christian. It is possible that what you have perceived as a controlling attitude may be genuine concern--so pray for discernment.

· If after receiving counsel you are convinced that your church is in the grip of a controlling spirit, then you are free to leave. You are not responsible for anyone else who is still loyal to the church, so don't try to rescue them. Pray for those people to discern the situation.

· At first you may feel like you can't trust another pastor again, but resist those thoughts and find a healthy church where the life of God is flowing, where the Bible is preached without compromise and where love is evident.

God has a healthy church for you. The Good Shepherd is fully able to lead you into a green pasture (Psalm 23:2) where you can grow in your relationship with Him. As you allow Him to lead you, He will also anoint your head with oil (vs. 5)--healing any wounds you encountered in an abusive environment. *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike Fehlauer has written a book on this important subject available from Charisma Press at the following internet address: http://cbw.strang.com/c.cgi?ProdID=7689&Source=INTNET

18 Page evidence

2009-02-14T04:50:00.000-08:00

Of course this only also works if you got thai friend, who can translate, but this is a video presentation during the Meet the members week where Rubina had to explain her actions and present the video evidence to allow PN to respond.

In essence, Rubina is providing video evidence both of the idolatory teaching, the teacher of the teaching for those in the know is the translator for DrJ when he used to teach in IPC.

The video basically shows the evidence not just in words but all allegations presented in a systematic manner.

I thought i should upload this in case i might loss the video.

PN's 18 page reply

2009-02-14T04:43:00.000-08:00

This is in thai but yes there was previously a youtube video by PN on the 18page statement. Unless you can speak thai or someone who can. I shall not comment on his reasons as its too long. To explain in english, unless of course people want to translate.

Address to HGI query

2009-02-13T17:36:00.000-08:00

Below is a post and comment i thought i could help clarify

HGI - Was actually an arm under the Hope movement, i think one of my earlier post have mentioned by Rubina that HGI aim was to spearhead the international churches to reach the 2015 goal. From my understanding PN was the President and DrJ was an advisor, but since then both have been stood down.

The previous address of HGI was in Thailand Bangkok before the split, we have an office in Hope Place. But i understand before the split there was plan to move HGI to the USA. That was one of the reasons we focused alot on the America region. As we wanted a more global flavour to the movement.

As for the website - its an E-club organisation. For those in the know, its spearheaded by Brisbane. Mainly an Evangelism club. The blog is quite well-known in Oceania.

Hope this helps abit

Anonymous said...

Who or what is HGI? To those in Hope, it is assumed to be a legitimate leadership of the entire organization. In time you will realize it is a phantom organization. They make the decisions, you pay the money. You don't know who they are or what they do with the money. Ask yourself: where is the HGI headquarters? What is the address? Phone number? website? the leaders? minutes from meetings? Have you EVER seen an HGI letter head?

What kind of legitimate organization would behave like this?

Another ex-member in Asia.

February 13, 2009 7:17 AM

Anonymous said...

There's certain truth in the above post...

I only know that there's this website: http://advancehgi.blogspot.com/search/label/cover

In fact, not many members know abt this website too...

Nexus Christian Church

2009-02-13T15:52:00.001-08:00

Another neutral group, has decided to start a new Church called the Nexus Christian Christian Church, Bangkok.

Nexus ขยับไปอีกก้าวแล้ว

วันนี้ เองครับ มีการประชุมผู้นำระดับหน่วยขึ้นไปของ Nexus หรือ รถไฟ สรุปร่วมกันว่า Nexus จะขยับไปข้างหน้าอีกก้าวหนึ่ง โดยประกาศเป็น คริสตจักร อย่างเต็มรูปแบบครับ

ใช้ชื่อภาษาอังกฤษว่า Nexus Christian Church, Bangkok

ชื่อไทยยังไม่รู้ รอวงในมาประกาศต่อครับ

This is still Hope camp but this year there will be 2 one conducted by foundation and another by PN.

Dr.J's political Allies

2009-02-10T14:29:00.000-08:00

This information might have been lost somewhere in all the information from biblediscuss. But as i was reading the papers yesterday and there was a news about Mr Mugabe. I remember about the post from Channi....

It seems that Dr.J is a Mugabe representative in Thailand and in fact one of his aide in his party was being blacklisted by the USA ( read one of the post ).

I don't know much about Dr.J's political party make-up and what is his political ambition but, if he were to be prime minister, i am sure Zimbabwe will be his closest ally.

If anyone knows some other details and what his party stands for maybe can you comment

Thanks

Post and Comments

2009-02-10T14:22:00.000-08:00

Its interesting that Ps PN often tell us not to split church but he himself did otherwise, I am not too sure if he will try to convince other HGI churches to join him, but i do know they are trying their best to get people around bangkok and thailand to join them, especially those churches who stayed neutral.

Apparently though from a friend he send people to the neutral churches to convince them to join him and also get people to talk to people in foundation to get them to switch over.

I do think HGI churches will stand with the leadership in HGI and not switch camp. From what i read from the biblediscuss, which unfortunately is mostly in Thai, we will follow Ps Simon.

Comments from previous post.... :

That is exactly what happened in Seattle... isolate you and try to convice others to abandon you... better to be united regardless of the situation. God blesses unity...

If anyone is reading this, also be aware that if the Hope leaders can't convince you to follow them, they will go through your spouse and try to get them on their side.

Thank God that these things are now finally being revealed.

Ex-Member in Seattle.; February 10, 2009 7:03 AM


Anonymous said...: I forgot to mention.

Washington DC
Dallas Texas
Tokyo
Los Angeles, California
Vancouver, Canada
Portland, Oregon

These are all churches that were under the leadership in Seattle. PN and Somtop came to Seattle during a big meeting and convinced the others to stay with Hope.

The Pastors in Washington DC moved back to Seattle and remain here till this day. As far as I can tell, DC evaporated as well as Portland, Oregon.

Later, Arizona joined with Seattle and remains with us today.

Quick Note

2009-02-09T14:33:00.000-08:00

To help clarify, there was a big change around 1997-2002. These was around the time that Dr.J officially stepped out from HGI. IPC was still in operation and Dr.J was still teaching around until 1997, the last i saw DrJ was in Contemporary Church and he taught a couple more times before he left the Church scene. Not all the pastors took the churches with them, i can only confirm - Seattle, KL and Melbourne, so in the end we had to set up another Hope church again in that city. 2 have website which is from previous post

There were changes in leadership in many Hope Churches in HGI during the same time Dr.J stepped down around the late 90s

1. Seattle
2. Melbourne
3. Singapore
4. Perth
5. KL Malaysia
6. Canberra
7. Hong Kong

These were the more established churches, there were some which had change of leadership but were only less than 30 people. Most were pionnering churches. But to clarify there were no split of churches due to this current crisis. I do believe most HGI churches are united in their decision to split from Hope Movement.

Past Hope Church

2009-02-09T04:08:00.000-08:00

Some links to Churches that used to be from Hope Movement,

New Hope International - http://www.newhopeinternationalchurch.org/

Reach Community - http://reachcc.org/

New change New Vision ?

2009-02-08T06:06:00.000-08:00

From the current grapevines, it does seem that we will be going independent and not be joining PN. HGI will be a whole new movement.

I am wondering if we will have a new logo, vision statement or goal ? Who will be the new elders and how we will make sure something like this would not happen again. The thing is we could not possibly have the same vision or logo with Hope Bangkok and foundation.

So i suppose as well its no more 1 million churches by 2015. Sad that we will never got to 2015 in one piece. Well, hopefully there will be better days ahead. At least, I do feel cleansing is done.

One pastor not from Hope shared something which i think would be good to implement. He mentioned that because leaders are still human and can make mistake therefore its important that no matter how high are you up in the leadership echelon, we need to make our lives accountable to someone - a mentor or a group of leaders. This will provide a check and balance so that we will not be swayed when we are faced with temptations.

HGI moving on ?

2009-02-06T21:53:00.000-08:00

As i patiently wait for more development, I think many international people especially the ancient ones at Hope - "those who have gone past the 7 year itch and still in Hope Church" are all waiting for the full official statement, there was one by Ps Simon but i think was restricted to only leaders in most churches.

As of now, I know we are staying Neutral and will not join PN nor foundation. Apparently someone from the grapevine have mentioned we might join the 3rd neutral party in Thailand who have not joined PN or foundation side.

I think in most churches the leaders know of the split but news have been in drips and draps going down to the members.

Though it might not be a nice thing to announce, but i do think it would be good that an official announcement available to the members be provided so there will be no more guessing. If we are going to join back with foundation or PN.

I know even in international, the people are still split, some support PN and would like us to join them again, some neutral, while some of course will not.

Anyway, if anyone got more info please feel free to comment on this post so we know what is latest development in the international scene.

Thanks

History of Hope International

2009-02-06T03:45:00.001-08:00

Having been in Hope for almost 2 decades, i can truly say i have seen it all and heard it all. I thought i should also blog down a little bit of the Hope International History. No opinions but just facts so here goes.

As you know Dr.J or Dr Dan as he is called, studied in Monash University and that is where he met his wife and also received the Lord Jesus. He attended a church in Melbourne and well his history in on my other post.

In melbourne, he started a bible study class which included some core people, where he gave them intensive bible study classes. I believe Ps Simon was one of the beneficiary of the initial years. Story was told DrJ finished the bible 8 times in that 1 year.

When he went back to thailand, he returned to Melbourne to preach in a seminar organised by the Overseas Christian Fellowshop, i believe back then Melbourn already had a Hope Church. In this meeting, was the birth of the International churches.

At that time DrJ's teaching was revolutionary, I was not there but i have watched the video a number of times. I believe its called One man One world and One man Can change the world.

It inspired alot of people to actually join Hope, well if i am not wrong and dont quote me on it, but you might be surpirse to find that some of the Hope Pastor's used to be OCF leaders. The leaders included, Ps Chew Bong, Ps Peter Ting, Ps Andrew, Ps Simon, Ps Gordan, Ps Victor Soo, etc. Alot of the initial bunch of people that studied with Dr.J joined him in Hope Movement. And alot more during this conference. You could say HGI was birth out of the one meeting.

Hope Melbourne was the 1st International daughter church, followed by Seattle, then Singapore... a number of others started appearing around the world. But from my understanding, the key night was the night DrJ was invited to preach at the OCF seminar, the sudden exodus from leaders to Hope back then caused alot of friction with OCF. I think if my memory serves me right they have a constitution which states that no OCF leaders or members can be a Hope member, whatever it has toned down... that i am not too sure. Most new OCFs wont know, only the older seniors, that was way back in the early 1990s.

But something happened in 1996-1999, I to say the least was stunned when one after another, many of the 1st group of pastors started leaving Hope for one reason or another, lets just say that if you have been in Hope long enough, you will know who are those pastors, and if you are not then it won't affect you either,so i wont go repeating their stories. But at the time i did not understand why these initial leaders left because in truth these were good leaders and now i now better. Lets put it this way, if 1 or 2 leaders left, i would think its normal but more than 10 pastors left, well Now we now better.

The really funny thing though, when some pastor left Hope they also brought their members with them like in Seattle, KL and Melbourne. PN used to tell us, NEVER NEVER NEVER SPLIT THE CHURCH. Lets keep unity and if you want to go, go so by yourself , protect unity at all cost. You can ask PN if you don't believe.

Anyway, all these happen when Dr.J started entered politics and left the church to PN. He only preached in IPC ( International Pastor's conference) though. I had felt something was really wrong but couldn't understand why. I attributed it to the spiritual covering and now when all these happen, i finally realise.

As Dr.J's heart left God and pursued politics, the spiritual covering that was suppose to be there, started to crack. As he continued to lie in court about his knowledge of us, so did the blessing that was suppose to cover our pastor.

When PN and DrJ talk about spiritual covering, the person providing the covering must first live a life that is worthy of such annointing. If blessings are suppose to flow from Top Down, but the top are not living a life worthy of men of God. Then how are we the ones in the middle and the bottom suppose to receive the annointing of the Hope Umbrella ?

There was alot of theory in my mind back then, i could not place my finger on it. But, something was not right, we had all the right principles, understanding, the blueprint and yet most of our Hope Churches stuggle to hit 1000 with the exception of Hope Singapore of course. Singapore is a very blessed country, almost every church there is a mega church.

Initially i blamed the pastors for leaving us, but now i understand, if almost 90% of the initially 1st flock left in about the same time, it could not have been their fault. Now the secret is out, all alog when the real man behind Hope ( DrJ) was disowning us apparently for our sake. How could God give us the covering.

We have to remember, even though PN was the official Head of Hope, Dr.J was still the leader of the movement and the one directing the vision and direction of the church. PN is his brother-in-law.

Now if you ask me, maybe it has been the best decision so far for HGI to leave the covering of PN and Dr.Dan. I would hate to see more pastors leaving Hope and getting burned out. I know HGI would be better off this way.

There are alot of good leaders in HGI and i think HGI will go far under a different covering from PN and Dr.Dan.

Cindy's Prophesy on PN

2009-02-06T03:33:00.001-08:00

A post in the biblediscuss.com discussed about the prophesy given to Hope Church by Cindy Jacob way back in I believe in 2006, in it she prophesy over PN and Rubina.

God promised many things to him and that God will prosper him.. but at the end of the prophesy Cindy gave 2 impt precursor or warning that because

1) " you were willing to unite the people "
2) "you were willing to humble yourself".

I have always learn that often prophesy of great blessings comes with conditions attached. If we are to claim the blessings we need to makes sure we also abide by the conditions set by God.

The funny things was in 2008, unity and humility was the 2 things God tested him. I believe this prophesy was sort of a pre-warning that great things could have come from the United Hope but before God could hand down his blessings he have to make sure that the people are ready to receive

What might have happen - If PN would have decided to step down, Hope will be still united and people will be encouraged to see a humble leader willing not only to admit his misdeeds but also to bear the consequence. I believe PN would have received more support and people would have respected him more. Who knows, by stepping down God could have opened also the door to a new Bank and move him into the business realm. By being full-time pastor it would have been impossible to start a bank and also pioneer the church movement. Our hope movement's workload is too demanding, i am sure most will agree.

I was actually pondering over Cindy Jacob's prophesy because I initially could not see how PN could have start a Bank. Now i see the full picture, God would have known in his forknowedge that PN would commit the things he did and no doubt, God was already preparing him for the inevitable.

Truely, if he had choosen the later path, Hope will not be where we are together, split into different camps. Well, next time when we receive God's prophesy we need to pay very close attention to it, and make sure when we are face with difficult choices, we do not the wrong one.

Below is the video of the prophesy.. oh by the way Rubina's prophesy was next after PN and his wife. Listen to what Cindy mention about Rubina as an esther, a voice for the children - it could also mean "spiritual" children.

Below is the youtube video i uploaded took me awhile to put it up ...anyway i suppose we can speculate the meaning of Cindy's prophesy. It was a topic raised in biblediscuss..